Obama calls for Israel to restore 1967 boundaries

[Kasz216]

vlad321 said:

Kasz216 said:

vlad321 said:

Kasz216 said:

 

There was never a US partitioning...

I'm going to take a stab and guess you mean the way the UN divided things...(mostly a UK concern) which caused the arabs to say "No" and then invade Israel along with a bunch of allies... lose and sign an arminstice which is now considered the 1967 boredrs.

Which neither the Palestinians or Israelis really agree on because well... arminstices aren't actually legal agreements of borders.  Those happen in ceasefires.

So Palestine still thinks things should go by the UN resolution that they rejected(Outside Hamas anyway which is even more extreme) while Israel believes that the borders are still undefined as such a thing can only be negotiated during the ceasefire, and no official borders have ever been drawn up and agreed on.

I don't know how one couldn't logically agree with the Israelis on this point.

Emotionally you could make arguements, but by the letter of the law... by not agreeing to the partitioning, there are no defined borders.

Had the west NOT intervened.  Those areas would still be under Ottoman control.  Since they only came under control by accepting western help by revolting agaisnt the Ottomans... in promise that they would be free of the Ottomans.  Worked out for basically everywhere but Palestine because the british promised it to both.

Hence the need for a split.

I TOTALLY meant the UN, I guess it was too early in the morning/late at night and typed an S instead of an N, or a freudian slip. Sorry. In my following post I did refer it correctly to the UN.

As for who it originally belongs to, whoever had the land before the Ottomans, should get it back afterwards. Maybe I am wrong, but I remember that with the exception of a few cities and areas here and there, the area was predominantly muslim, not jewish. Which is where the British really fucked things up. As I mentioned a bit later, the biggest idiots in this whole conflict is the west.

I do agree it's all Englands fault... not really anything England can do now though.  Originally they were going to give the Jews Somalia.

"Whoever had it before the ottomans" though is a poor arguement... mostly because... it wasn't the Palestinians.

The Mameluks owned it... and they don't really exist anymore.  Ethnically they were Turks.  So basically... we'd be giving it to Turkey?

The majority of Palestinians today are not Turks... I'm not sure any country led by Turks would want it...

So who owned it before the Turks that we should give it too?

Europeon nations...  They ironically are the last owners of Palestine that still actually exist today.

Who decided to give some of it to the Jews and some to the Palestinians... which the Palestinians disagreed with.

In fact, France I think actually tried to gain control of palestine under some old claim they had.

 

It's been a loooooong time and many many empires since Palestine has been ruled remotely locally.

I believe the last time it had actually been locally ruled not by an outside empire was by the Jews... before Islam even existed... before the Romans took them out.

Actually think it went  Jews- Romans(Italians) - Byzantines(Turkey) - Ummayad (Saudia Arabia) -  Abbasid (Iraq) - Fatmid Tunisia - Crusader States (Europe) - Mameluks (Egypt/Turkey) - Ottomans (Turkey) - Egypt(Turks that were rebelling from Egypt led by an Albanian) - Ottomans (Turkey) - England - Israel.

"Last owned locally" would be Israel.

Before it would be either Egypt or Europe depending how you looked at it.  Neither of which actually related to the Palestinians race wise.

Also, you'd have to conquer Jordan and give Jordan over to Europe or Egypt... since Jordan is a part of Palestine.  It and Palestine were split in half though when England made it's decleration to give land to the jews.

Jordan was essentially "Where jews were not supposed to go."

Really though, the last local rulers were the Jews... with other groups moving in during the many many empires that came after while Jews were forced out or converted.

 

To get to "locally owned by the Palestinians by the way you have to go

Hasmonean (Jews), Macedonians (Greece or Macedonia, it's complicated),  Judea (Jews), Persians (Iran), Israelite Kingdoms (most of modern palestine) (Jews) & Phoenicians (Jordan) (Palestinians maybe) & Philistines(other parts) (???),   Possibly Palestine, because the guys that lived in some areas aren't like what the bible says.

Going off Wikipedia off this for now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine#History

So yeah... a far ways back, for maybes.

See the way you go about it though is all wrong too. Because there was a time when Jews weren't local either, and they just happened to settle on the land.

However who exactly are the Palestinians? I may be wrong but I thought they were descendants of a religion very close to the jewish one, I forgot the particular name right now. Furthermore if I remember, they ended up converting to Christianity then to Islam as the region changed control, it could have been straight to Islam it was a bit ago. The point is however, that those people just happen to have lived there and changed relgion based on whoever was in control. Meanwhile the original jews did not begin to come back to the region until much later, and then with WWII and all tha, even more so. My point being, what are currently called Plestinians seems to be a mix of arabs, crusader/Byzantine, and jewish blood, mostly being mixed up in that very region. That is exactly why I believ it is far mroe their land, than the jews who just came back to it when they noticed they were unwanted absolutely anywhere else. (speaking of which, I find it interesting that the ST. Louis never tried to dock in Africa or something if they were so desperate to get out of Europe. I guess they chose to risk it than have to put up with such an "uncivilized place" or some other bullshit).

Er, no I'm not.  They lived there and were the local rulers.  By local ruler... I mean who's country can be constituted as being based out of that geographical location.

Also... they were planning to go to Africa.  Before the British agreed to give them Israel, the British were going to offer them Somalia.  However they said they would prefer to go back to the home of their ancestors... and the british agreed and gave them part of palestine rather then all of Somalia. 

As for "just decided to come back" do you mean... had the first time to come back ever because well... it was the first time they had any power to effect any positive change in any large number?

They didn't just notice they were unwanted absolutely everywhere else... to claim that is to seemingly not understand basic history.  There had NEVER been a time where jews have been openly welcomed anywhere before then... and very very few places even now.

As for the "mixed blood" arguement.  It's actually quite the opposite.  Palestine was not ruled locally... there is actually very little "mixed blood" in the palestinian population.

Unlike the jews who faced constant diasporias.

.I can't understand why you think such a case is logical.  Two groups of people live under a tyrant... one refuses to comply and is banished, the other group complies.  Eventually the tyrant is overthrown... and the group that complies deserves more compensation?

Additionally, you somewhat undermind your point with the whole "changing religions" thing... afterall that's not all they changed.  They changed everything.  Culturally they are no longer what they were back when the region was ruled by the indiginious people they did adopt the customs of their conquerers.