Lots of bashing for the belief of God....

[Final-Fan]

Allfreedom99 said:

Final-Fan said:

Freedom, I take it from the fact that you have completely dodged answering any of highway's points, in favor of vague "meaning of life"-type rhetoric, that you in fact have no answer to his points, but cannot bear to admit it. 

I won't presume that the same is true of my post; perhaps you just ignored it since I wasn't the one you originally responded to. 

Final Fan actually no I read your post, read some of your website links and even watched your video. I just havn't responded, because I am busy during the day working and don't have much down time. probably why Im a member of only this forum so far. I will say I found those site interesting to read and the video was interesting. Im coming to you from the standpoint of, why do physics even exist? "From a singular point over time, space, matter, and energy the laws of physics and mathematics are formed." does that make sense to you? And what I was using to reply to highway was simply getting back to basics and common sense of which you seemed to imply in your last post that we shouldnt even use any common sense when trying to describe our origins. Do me a favor and answer some of the questions I asked the user,highway. Can you explain to me why murdering someone is wrong if we are all just properties of mathematics and chemical reactions? If in the beginning there was chaos then why do we have gravity?

I'm glad to hear you read my response and looked at those links. 

You said that you don't understand how someone can see beauty in what they think of as the chance product of "mathematical possibilities".  Did you look at a bunch of fractals?  Did you not see any beauty there?  (They are undeniably mathematical in nature.) 

You say I implied "that we shouldn't use common sense when trying to figure out our origins".  Well, you're exactly right!  The reason for this is that common sense, while extremely useful in our day-to-day lives, can and does fail when looking into certain areas like the birth of the universe.  (As a side note, I suppose this is why it's particularly deadly (not literally) when creationists appeal to common sense to get people to ignore science, because common sense is normally so reliable.) 

As you probably know, when you do logic from wrong assumptions (such as such-and-such being impossible due to common sense) you can go spectacularly wrong fairly quickly.  And highwaystar even says that logic itself can fail!  That is truly disturbing to me, in a way that even physics being inconsistent doesn't do.  In fact I am even now wondering if it's ANY logic or just logic that e.g. assumes that physics works the way we're used to or something.  But if there is enough evidence I will have to accept it. 

As an example of common sense not working for some areas of science, I gave that video as evidence.  What do you think of that?  Do you admit that common sense would fail, and therefore can't be trusted when speculating about the creation of the universe?  If not, why not? 

You ask me why physics exists.  I am not sure that is a question that can be fully answered, let alone whether I can do it.  But we have physics because that's the way the universe came out.  I suppose it could probably have come out differently, in which case life as it functions in this universe would probably be impossible.  But other ways of life might be possible that are impossible here. 

But here is an important point:  the "laws of physics/mathematics" WERE NOT formed.  They were never formed except for in people's imaginations.  There is just physics and mathematics as they are.  The "laws" are just ways that the universe works that people accept completely so that they are considered "laws" (in the case of physics) or a system of self-consistent number manipulation (math).  When people find out new and interesting ways to jiggle the numbers they are sometimes called "laws" because they will always come out that way and let people do interesting things.  Do you understand and agree that the "laws" are not the creation of the universe (or God) but humanity? 

As for why things were defying common sense (atomic structure etc., you say gravity but I don't know about that one) at the creation of the universe, I suppose it has to do with the extremely high energy state that things were in, and the unimaginable concentration of matter.  As for how that matter got there, as I said there is ongoing speculation about that. 

As for the question of why murder is wrong if people are just chemicals etc., I take it you are implying that without purpose (as from God) there is no point to life and we might as well just knife each other for the giggles.  Well I totally disagree with that.  I will just give you an interesting quote from an extremely interesting story you can read HERE.  It's a Harry Potter fanfiction work, but it also concentrates on scientific principles, and more importantly still, ways of thinking scientifically and ways to avoid thinking in ways that lead you astray or deceive yourself.  The human mind is a pretty murky place apparently. 

"There is no justice in the laws of Nature, no term for fairness in the equations of motion. The universe is neither evil, nor good, it simply does not care. The stars don't care, or the Sun, or the sky. But they don't have to! We care! There is light in the world, and it is us!"

What do you think of that? 

P.S.  And I also think it's bullshit that you think you're Alex Trebek or something and all answers have to be in the form of a question before you will respond to what you disagree with.