Lots of bashing for the belief of God....

[Final-Fan]

DélioPT said:

Final-Fan said:

DélioPT said:
1. Because the truth is that either you accept or not.
--I said people would go to hell because of ignorance? I never said that. What more proff do you want than what`s written in the Bible, all the apparitions and miracles?
--I said that as there is only two ways: good/wrong; life/death, etc.
--3rd option? People go to hell because they went against Him, so it`s a punishment and that`s as good reason as the reward for being good going to heaven.
--Not following a rule in society gets you the same consequence. It`s not just not doing it, it`s deliberately opposing to it.
2. You just don`t want to accept that you are fully responsible for what you do. Only you. As i said before and you ignore. God gives us freedom and everything that goes with it. Every time you decide something it`s your doing.
--When the day comes and you didn`t control your actions then no, you won`t be responsible for them, but when you can do.
--I kill, therefore It´s God`s fault for letting me have freedom. Now that`s being sincere to yourself.
3. You asked me if people sin. I just said yes, in a different way.
--Are you mad or something?
--But is this the point: no matter how much i live life i ended up sinning, therefore it`s God`s fault that i sin?
--Right, let`s ignore once again that i made the decisions.
--You know that there`s a difference between necessary and possible? I had the chance to make good when i did bad, you know?
--All these posts amount to only one thing: have we free will? If you say yes then all that you do is your doing and your consequences to be acountable for. If you are not, don`t blame the next guy that hurts in any way as he is not free to do anything different.

1. 
What about someone who never was well exposed to all the stuff in the New Testament, what would happen when they died?  They don't believe in Jesus or even God, but they never had the opportunity to do so either.  Do they go to hell?  I thought you would say they did, thus they go to hell for their ignorance. 

What more proof do I want?  What about something that is verifiably true, not just stories that could for all we can PROVE just as easily be highly exaggerated fables or even completely made up fairy tales like vlad says.  I doubt that most of the texts of the major religions had anything to do with deliberate deception, but that doesn't make them true either. 

In short, the Bible doesn't convince me.  If that's all God made available to convince people in the 21st century -- or for that matter ever since Jesus died -- IMO he did a bad job.  I guess it's my bad luck I won't be given GOOD evidence like Doubting Thomas was. 

If "I'm just not convinced yet" is considered an EVIL REJECTION OF GOD like you say, and it means I deserve to burn in hell FOREVER with the child rapists, then I think it's a pretty shitty system God set up. 

2. 
You misunderstand me.  I thought I was clear with this but let me say it explicitly here:  EVERYTHING PEOPLE DO, GOOD AND BAD, IS THEIR OWN RESPONSIBILITY.  Guy A kills Guy B and it's Guy A's fault.  But if Guy C told Guy A that he would murder his entire family if he didn't kill Guy B, then it's Guy C's fault too.  And if God set up the universe KNOWING that all that would happen, it's God's fault too. 

I AM NOT SAYING that people are not responsible for their own actions if God can see the future and made them knowing the choices they would freely make.  I'm just saying that God is ALSO responsible. 

"I kill, therefore It´s God`s fault for letting me have freedom. Now that`s being sincere to yourself."  IMO, at this point, either you're trying to bait me, or you're stupid, or you're blinding yourself to my point because you can't accept it. 

3. 
No, I didn't just ask you if people sin.  Go back, read the earlier posts, and either give me a coherent answer or admit you can't. 

1. That`s a difficult thing to answer, because we have to consider why didn`t know of God and that we can only honestly answer by looking case by case. Would they goto hell because of "ignorance of God"? No.
The reason people go to hell is because people rejected Him whilst knowing them. There`s a difference there.

Saying your still not convinced is honestly not trying to see the truth. I understand that people can have doubts, but being with Jesus needs a leap of faith: trust! As Jesus said to Thomas: "fortunate are those we believe without seeing, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven" This means that you got trust even if that jumps scares you in the first place. It`s a choice you make.

The proof that you want is to see Him in any shape or form. That`s not believing (as in having faith) that`s just seeing.
God didn`t just leave the Bible as proof. Throughout all the centuries there have bee miracles, apparitions that can serve as proof. Even in our daily lifes He`s there. If you open up your heart you will find Him.
In the same way, if you don`t open up your heart to peole you will never find friensdhips or love.

A sin is a sin, we just like to think that somethings can be forgiven and others not. God doesn´t care what you did as long as you repent and ask forgiveness you are forgiven. That`s how good He is.

2. No it was not a bait, it was merely an exampple that best reflects your vision.
I say: A kills B, it`s all A`s fault.
You say: A kills B, it`s my fault but it`s also God`s.
And this is where imo you are wrong.
God only set up the conditions of our existence and there`s nothing wrong in that. It`s the way we are that makes it wrong or right. You can`t admit that people are fully responsible for what they do if you also put the blame on someone else.
God even guide`s you to make you choose the best decision. but in the end it`s still WE who decide.

3. I did but i guess i still missed the point then. Can you please repeat what exactly did you want?

1. 
OK, so we've established that not being aware of God and Jesus won't send you to hell.  To go to hell wou have to "reject him whilst knowing him".  I'll come back to this.  By the way, does this mean they go to Heaven, or is there a third option? 

You now say that believing takes a leap of faith.  You are admitting that the evidence is insufficient, people have to just believe it.  What follows from this is that anyone who doesn't take that leap of faith, who doesn't believe, doesn't know God, and therefore doesn't go to Hell. 

I don't think those miracles happened because of God.  I suspect that either they were strange or amazing coincidences, or hallucinations, or just didn't happen. 

I do have friends thank you very much. 

2.
Then it was a terribly worded example. 

And I would argue that you can't absolve someone of deliberately setting up horrible actions just because there was someone else with free will further down the line.  That's kicking shit downhill to an absurd extreme. 

3. 
I'll get on that later.