An immoral relationship?

[DélioPT]

sapphi_snake said:

@DélioPT:

That`s kinda like what i said. So when a society starts decaying does that mean that values like respect for human life and liberty are meaningless just because people ignore them? Actually, when that happens  normally there`s somekind of movement/revolution to bring them up.

It's not that people ignored them, it's that there were periods when those were simply not considerd morals at all.

And in your words that logic is a consensus. That`s why i mentioned relativism.

The consenus has the role of validating morals, not creating them.

Logical arguments don`t need something real to be validated, they just need to be coherent from start to finish. So, in truth, you can`t say it`s a faulty premises and that the result is illogical.

WRONG! An argument that starts off of a faulty premise is illogical, regardless of it's coherence, because it's very foundation is wrong. You (like many people today) are confusing logical arguments with sophisms (arguments that seem to be logical, but are not).

And there isn`t a logical argument that can really prove that God exists or not.

There's no logical reason to believe that such a being exists in the first place.

Aren`t actions the direct result of reasoning and beliefs? So, if i am determined by something, it`s logical to assume that so are my actions as an effect of the first premise.

What determines people to act is way more complex than that.

You and I aren`t humanity, so we don`t serve as an example.
Even before there were societies there was a direct of the world around us. We created societies based on something and that something is what maintains them. Even if we are impacted by them we can always choose to follow or to change, but that basis isn`t our creation, is what lies within us  - which ended up creating them in the first place.

Humanity is in the same boat as us today. Culture predates every single human being alive today, and it will predate every single human being that will come after. Untill culture and societies were developed there was nothing keeping people together. Society was born when humans started cooperating within organised groups, and started developing culture.

Christianity is where it is because of it`s values. Yes there was manipulation and a lot of corruption, but seeing just that part is forgetting that it exists for more than 2000 years and it wasn`t all opression.
I knew there`s more about Christ, just giving an example.

Christianity is where it is because it was forced on people and promoted by those in power, as it was a good method to manipulate and control the masses. Christianity offers nothing worthwhile.

Rational observation isn`t all we are. Unless you are giving up a part of you. The other part of you also discovers something like love. But not all things in life need to or can be proved.

Rational observation obviously isn't all we are, but the other aspects are part of our dark, primitive side.

It isn`t jumping ahead of ourselves. In a religious views there`s a lot to back up what is said about God: the coming of Jesus, profits, saints, miracles, etc.

And what makes you think any of those things happened? There's no historical record of any of it (The Bigle doesn't count).

Why are religious answers, lies? Religions try their best to understand God with what they have. In that sense, there are much of lies as any given explanation as no one can say that they know something with complete certainty.

Religion tries to undertsand somethign that does not exist. Religion tries to exaplin important human questions with lies.  There's no truth to it.

There`s more to faith than that. You don`t love God because you were taught to. Or for that matter anyone else.

Yes, you do. It's all indoctrination.

I am sorry but that seems like a conspiracy theory.

There's no consipracy at all (because those who beleive have no ideea ot's all a lie in the first place).

Opium tends to cloud our judgment, those who actually have faith just view the world with different eyes.

Junkies also view the world with different eyes.

"It's not that people ignored them, it's that there were periods when those were simply not considerd morals at all."
I think nazis kinda "decided to ignore" morals because it didn`t serve it`s purposes and not because they weren`t the best reflexion of humanity.

"WRONG! An argument that starts off of a faulty premise is illogical, regardless of it's coherence, because it's very foundation is wrong. You (like many people today) are confusing logical arguments with sophisms (arguments that seem to be logical, but are not)."
I used the concept of validation, not of truth.

"What determines people to act is way more complex than that."
Not really. The process may be complex, but those two faculties are out ways to interact.

"Humanity is in the same boat as us today. Culture predates every single human being alive today, and it will predate every single human being that will come after. Untill culture and societies were developed there was nothing keeping people together. Society was born when humans started cooperating within organised groups, and started developing culture."
You can`t accept that we predate societies and we create them for a reason and then act like it´s a total different thing the fact we are part of it now.
The same reason(s) that made societies are what still maintain them, what changes is the expression of those reasons that happen to be ourselves.
That`s being illogical as you change the connection of your premises to achive your conclusion that we are a product of cultures.
That structuralist way of thinking only obliterates free-thinking, responsability and liberty, yet we live in a world where that exists.

"Christianity is where it is because it was forced on people and promoted by those in power, as it was a good method to manipulate and control the masses. Christianity offers nothing worthwhile."
Christianity did have it`s bad period but you cannot look at history and say that it lasted from it`s beginning to this day. And even when it was bad you are not looking closely as there were many countries that were influenced by the core values of Christianity and that still remain to this day."
Christianity offers nothing worthwhile? Are you sure? A religion that guides you to love even those who hate you, a religion that reached out for conversations with jews and muslims for peace and love, offers nothing? Ok.

"Religion tries to undertsand somethign that does not exist. Religion tries to exaplin important human questions with lies.  There's no truth to it"
No, those are the answers you choose not to believe or follow.

"Rational observation obviously isn't all we are, but the other aspects are part of our dark, primitive side."
You call your emotional/spiritual side primitive and dark? How can something that can be used for good or evil be considered dark? You know this applies for reason aswell, because it can be used for good or evil.

"And what makes you think any of those things happened? There's no historical record of any of it (The Bigle doesn't count)."
Not only are they recorded, they are also investigated. Any book that documents an event must be regarded aswell - like it or not.

"There`s more to faith than that. You don`t love God because you were taught to. Or for that matter anyone else.

Yes, you do. It's all indoctrination."
Exactly, we all millions and millions of people live a lie. When we say that we love our families, friends, etc. it`s our way of living, when we love God is because we are indoctrinated to do so because we are just brainless things, better yet... robots! O_O

"There's no consipracy at all (because those who beleive have no ideea ot's all a lie in the first place)."
Thanks for bringing me to the light! :p

"Junkies also view the world with different eyes. "
You got us! It was a big secret but you got us! :D