| sapphi_snake said: @DélioPT: No, history shows that we embraced that part of us or that we didn`t (world wars, dark ages) History shows that there were times when those werec onsidered values, and times when they weren't. Relativism is a bad way of looking at things and, honestly, that`s what you are going for. In your words, if something is achieved by consensus they might aswell be good as the next bet thing or even, anything goes, as it`s through consensus. Anything goes, but not really. Not anyone can create moral rules, and moral rules change slowly over time. There's also a certain logic (faulty or not) when creating morals. So you can't just take anything and turn it into a moral rule. Actually, if there wasn`t something universal within us, how could we even begin to understand others before and after societies? I assume it's because we're all part of the same animal species. That may have something to do with it. Christ never said anything? Are you sure? Because i am pretty sure the Bible has a good amount of things He said to the disciples. Or so they claim. And God doesn´t exist? I never tried to prove His existence. All i did was fundament a logical reasoning from a religious point of view. Why the need to express yourself once more? If you start off of faulty premises (like those based on religion) then the result is something illogical. There`s a sense of determinism in your words. Because people can actually think you know, but most don't have the capacity for such analysis (or never strive to reach their full potential).
Of course you're responsable for what you do. Culture only determines what you think and what you believe, not what your actions will be. That`s a contradiction. It's not a contradiction at all. I don't think that you or I have existed prior to culture or society. The humans who invented culture are the only ones who can say that they predated culture. We are a product of a product, that's true. When i spoke about revelation i was talking about the funadamentation of a given religion. The problem with the type of faith that religious people have is that it's blind faith, the worst type of faith. I do beleive that religious people are first of all fooling themselves. As long as they don't hurt anyone with their charade I have no problem with it though (I won't pretend to not find it ridiculous though). Interpreted to say whatever? Since when "love one another like I loved you (all)" isn`t pretty clear in it`s meaning? I think religion was precisely invented for that prupose. Christianity would've never become a big religion had it not had this potential (manipulation and oppression). And there is more in the New Testament then just that. You are talking about the truth that changes when cultures change? Or the one that changes when scientifical paradigms change? Cause i don`t really see a solid truth based on that only. Science actually influences culture, and the changes that take place within it. What I was talking about is thwt what is true can only be discovered through rational observation, and nothing else. So, when religions can`t explain everything related to God, yet trying to look at Him and trying to give the best explanation possible, you assume that those are lies? There are answers that no one can give an answer too, therefore lies? I fail to see a logical reasoning there. I've yet to see any reson why I should think that a being such as "God" exists in the first place, so trying to exaplin thigns related to this being is jumping ahead of oneself. Also, I said that religion offers made-up answers (lies) to existential questions that people have not been able to answer (yet). I never seen Him aswell, but in religion "seeing is believing" has no place. And people ask me why I'm not religious, LOL.
Most peopel believe because that's how they were brought up and indoctrinated to do. In this world there are people who believe and there are people who don`t. I for one don`t think it`s a human invention, but that`s me. And God is, to those like me, the creator of all. That`s the basis of religious "essence-existence" view on the world, by they way - as you can recognize in my view. Well, all religions are human inventions. Good luck with your opium. |
"No, history shows that we embraced that part of us or that we didn`t (world wars, dark ages)
History shows that there were times when those werec onsidered values, and times when they weren't."
That`s kinda like what i said. So when a society starts decaying does that mean that values like respect for human life and liberty are meaningless just because people ignore them? Actually, when that happens normally there`s somekind of movement/revolution to bring them up.
"There's also a certain logic (faulty or not) when creating morals. So you can't just take anything and turn it into a moral rule"
And in your words that logic is a consensus. That`s why i mentioned relativism.
"And God doesn´t exist? I never tried to prove His existence. All i did was fundament a logical reasoning from a religious point of view. Why the need to express yourself once more?
If you start off of faulty premises (like those based on religion) then the result is something illogical."
Logical arguments don`t need something real to be validated, they just need to be coherent from start to finish. So, in truth, you can`t say it`s a faulty premises and that the result is illogical.
And there isn`t a logical argument that can really prove that God exists or not.
"Of course you're responsable for what you do. Culture only determines what you think and what you believe, not what your actions will be."
Aren`t actions the direct result of reasoning and beliefs? So, if i am determined by something, it`s logical to assume that so are my actions as an effect of the first premise.
"It's not a contradiction at all. I don't think that you or I have existed prior to culture or society. The humans who invented culture are the only ones who can say that they predated culture. We are a product of a product, that's true."
You and I aren`t humanity, so we don`t serve as an example.
Even before there were societies there was a direct of the world around us. We created societies based on something and that something is what maintains them. Even if we are impacted by them we can always choose to follow or to change, but that basis isn`t our creation, is what lies within us - which ended up creating them in the first place.
"Christianity would've never become a big religion had it not had this potential (manipulation and oppression). And there is more in the New Testament then just that."
Christianity is where it is because of it`s values. Yes there was manipulation and a lot of corruption, but seeing just that part is forgetting that it exists for more than 2000 years and it wasn`t all opression.
I knew there`s more about Christ, just giving an example.
"What I was talking about is thwt what is true can only be discovered through rational observation, and nothing else"
Rational observation isn`t all we are. Unless you are giving up a part of you. The other part of you also discovers something like love. But not all things in life need to or can be proved.
"I've yet to see any reson why I should think that a being such as "God" exists in the first place, so trying to exaplin thigns related to this being is jumping ahead of oneself. Also, I said that religion offers made-up answers (lies) to existential questions that people have not been able to answer (yet)."
It isn`t jumping ahead of ourselves. In a religious views there`s a lot to back up what is said about God: the coming of Jesus, profits, saints, miracles, etc.
Why are religious answers, lies? Religions try their best to understand God with what they have. In that sense, there are much of lies as any given explanation as no one can say that they know something with complete certainty.
"Most peopel believe because that's how they were brought up and indoctrinated to do."
There`s more to faith than that. You don`t love God because you were taught to. Or for that matter anyone else.
"Well, all religions are human inventions. Good luck with your opium."
I am sorry but that seems like a conspiracy theory.
Opium tends to cloud our judgment, those who actually have faith just view the world with different eyes.
