| sapphi_snake said:
@DélioPT: Actually ethical systems only change on the outside, which means that the perception of said value can be improved or worsen. No. Just no. Values like dignity and respect always were part of us. History shows otherwise. Even if they were ignored that doesn`t mean the were meaningless, they just weren`t contemplated as being part of us - when they are part of us as we can`t talk about one value and ignore the rest. They are all connected. This makes no sense. Morals are invented by people, they're ideeas created by humans. They don't exist independently of humans.
What does this have to do with morals?
Actually the core does change and has changed.Again, history shows that.
What you're saying is simply wrong, and makes no sense. As I said, ethical systems are invented by humans, they don't exist independently. They're not understood, they're created. And they only have value if society at large accepts it, else you'd have a situation where everyone has their personal moral systems, which could lead to conflicts. The true meaning of Christianity isn`t what we say, it`s what God and Jesus taught us. Christ is the source of Christianity, not a single person. Isn't Christ a single person? And yes, the true meaning of Christianity is what Christians say it is. Christ never said anything (he never wrote anything), and God doesn't exist. Thinking freely is one thing, expressing it is another. The only thing that cultures can opress is expression. I don`t think anyone can stop anyone from thinking what they want, or stop, aswell, what we think is better for ourselves. Thinking is an accquired skill for most. If you don't have access to information you'll probably be ignorant and believe everything you're told without ever thinking that it may not be true. As I said, most people are sheep. As is said before, cultures to educate but they don`t makes us unless we tag along. Of course cultures/societies creates desires. Just look how everyone cares so much for being hot or sexy. Is that important in my life as a definition of what i am? No. And that`s all that matters: the ways we define ourselves. A culture represents a person's entire universe. Everything one knows about anything comes from culture. The way you walk, the way you eat, the way you sleep, these are all determined by culture. Even what people find "sexy" is determined by culture (in the past fat women were considered attractive, and in ancient times men were considered to be the fair sex). Even the way you think is determined by culture, unless you're a remarkable individual who can see through culture's mirage. Cultures are the reflexion of societies. They are even more abstract than societies. And as such they are a posteriori to us and even to what we know of ourselves. Only after i exist, and with that, what we recognize of ourselves, do society and culture exist. They are out product, that´s why can`t a product defines. It does help recognize ourselves, but no more than that. Cultures are invented by societies, however culture predates you and me. Culture was a posteriori to the people who invented it, however culture is a priori to humans today. Everything we know about the world we know from culture. Almost everything we learn about the world around us, we learn from culture, including information about ourselves. That`s a very low and very reducionist point of view on what religions are. Prove what? You're only talking about the myth aspect of religion, which sadly you view to be truth., There's no "revelation", because there's nothing to reveal itself. That's just a myth constructed to fool people.
Jesus's teachign can be interpreted to say whatever, so that's not an issue.Plus, religion is used for control and oppression, even today.
There's only one kind of truth, the kind that's in accordance with reality. Everything else is just lies.
Answers to things humans cannot give any logical ones. Questions like "Where did we come from?", "Does our existence have a meaning?" etc. These questions have no answers yet, so people make up answers to them. There are certain things that we just can`t explain because it`s beyond us. Can we, believers, explain with 100% accuracy what God is? We are not God to that. Should we throw it away just because it`s not perfect on our end? Only if we are ready to throw ourselves with it as we aren`t perfect and we can`t explain ourselves perfectly. What is this "God" thing you're talking about? I've never seen such a thing in my life, nor have I found any reason to think such a thing exists.There are ltos of things we cannot expalin. This "God" thing isn't one of them, as it is a mere human invention, a concept made up by humans and naturalised through culture, hence why some people think such a thing exists (culture creates a universe that often has nothing to do with reality). |
Values like dignity and respect always were part of us.
History shows otherwise
No, history shows that we embraced that part of us or that we didn`t (world wars, dark ages)
"... Morals are invented by people, they're ideeas created by humans. They don't exist independently of humans."
They are our reflexion. And created to what purpose if not so we can live by what we are? If we create something is because we want something to be fulfilled within us.
"Change/reasoning may bring enlightment and a better perception of what we are. And when that happens we can say it fits.
What does this have to do with morals?"
This means that through existence (within societies) we strive for a better understanding of ourselves and to some that means a better understanding of life and how that`s related to God.
"And they only have value if society at large accepts it, else you'd have a situation where everyone has their personal moral systems, which could lead to conflicts."
Relativism is a bad way of looking at things and, honestly, that`s what you are going for. In your words, if something is achieved by consensus they might aswell be good as the next bet thing or even, anything goes, as it`s through consensus.
Actually, if there wasn`t something universal within us, how could we even begin to understand others before and after societies?
"Isn't Christ a single person? And yes, the true meaning of Christianity is what Christians say it is. Christ never said anything (he never wrote anything), and God doesn't exist."
Christ never said anything? Are you sure? Because i am pretty sure the Bible has a good amount of things He said to the disciples.
And God doesn´t exist? I never tried to prove His existence. All i did was fundament a logical reasoning from a religious point of view. Why the need to express yourself once more?
"A culture represents a person's entire universe. Everything one knows about anything comes from culture. The way you walk, the way you eat, the way you sleep, these are all determined by culture. Even what people find "sexy" is determined by culture (in the past fat women were considered attractive, and in ancient times men were considered to be the fair sex). Even the way you think is determined by culture, unless you're a remarkable individual who can see through culture's mirage."
There`s a sense of determinism in your words.
But how can someone see beyond culture if "Everything one knows about anything comes from culture"?
So how can i be responsible for my actions if all we are is a product of culture? And the rest are lies? How can you prove something not`s even physical or testable? Not even philosophers like Kant did that.
"Cultures are invented by societies, however culture predates you and me. Culture was a posteriori to the people who invented it, however culture is a priori to humans today. Everything we know about the world we know from culture. Almost everything we learn about the world around us, we learn from culture, including information about ourselves."
That`s a contradiction.
So we exist prior to societies yet they are our definition? We became a product of our product and that`s reasonable to you?
"Prove what? You're only talking about the myth aspect of religion, which sadly you view to be truth., There's no "revelation", because there's nothing to reveal itself. That's just a myth constructed to fool people."
When i spoke about revelation i was talking about the funadamentation of a given religion.
And why are you so eager to call people fools? Do you really believe that those who have faith or just fools? And fool people to what purpose? Those who use religion to fool gain nothing by doing it.
"Sadly"? Are you showing me empathy towards my religious condition? I`m i a fool aswell?
"Jesus's teachign can be interpreted to say whatever, so that's not an issue.Plus, religion is used for control and oppression, even today.
Interpreted to say whatever? Since when "love one another like I loved you (all)" isn`t pretty clear in it`s meaning?
Religion is used for control and opression and that`s true. Does that mean religion is that? I think that when people use it that way they are ruining it.
Religion holds no truth? What truth are you talking about? A truth that you can verify? A truth you can live and feel?
There's only one kind of truth, the kind that's in accordance with reality. Everything else is just lies.
You are talking about the truth that changes when cultures change? Or the one that changes when scientifical paradigms change? Cause i don`t really see a solid truth based on that only.
"Answers to things humans cannot give any logical ones. Questions like "Where did we come from?", "Does our existence have a meaning?" etc. These questions have no answers yet, so people make up answers to them."
So, when religions can`t explain everything related to God, yet trying to look at Him and trying to give the best explanation possible, you assume that those are lies? There are answers that no one can give an answer too, therefore lies? I fail to see a logical reasoning there.
"What is this "God" thing you're talking about? I've never seen such a thing in my life, nor have I found any reason to think such a thing exists.There are ltos of things we cannot expalin. This "God" thing isn't one of them, as it is a mere human invention, a concept made up by humans and naturalised through culture, hence why some people think such a thing exists (culture creates a universe that often has nothing to do with reality)."
I never seen Him aswell, but in religion "seeing is believing" has no place.
What sort of reasons do you think people find to believe?
In this world there are people who believe and there are people who don`t. I for one don`t think it`s a human invention, but that`s me.
And God is, to those like me, the creator of all. That`s the basis of religious "essence-existence" view on the world, by they way - as you can recognize in my view.
