| sapphi_snake said: @DélioPT: There`s never a full consensus on all that`s moral related and that`s exactly why that consensus can`t become the source of morality or the desire to make it universal. Consensus validaes morals, it's not the source of morals. Humans are the source of morals. If we have a system that`s created on consensus, time, place and culture will make it insignificant because it would be one day one set of moral values and the next day, another. And that's exactly what happens with any moral system. It changes over time, histroy proves that perfectly. However, it doesn't change as quickly as you imagine. that`s why they to be outside of context - whichever it is - so we can recognize ourselves in it. People recognise themselves in the moral system because the moral system is part of the culture that shapes their very lives. Ethics are meant to be an expression of humanity. If we admit morals=context, what are we even deciding upon? Our view on humanity changes as well. Views on humanity HAVE changed considerably over time. In the past people outside your country wouldn't have even been considered humans beings. And even the views on those who were considered human beings have changed. At least, one thing we agree! :D But at the same time we are not all culture. That`s like saying i am what my parents, teachers, etc taught me. How could exist responsibility for our actions if there was no "I" in this world. We are also what we make of ourselves. What I'm saying is that most people rarely manage to go beyond the culture they're indoctrinated in. To have views that transcend their culture. Yet even core values change over time. Not to mention that these "core values" are often ambiguous in nature. Yes they were, but even then the essence of ethics existed as it always has. What changed from that time to this day, was the realization by reflection that those actions did not serve God`s desires. What changed were the moral principles. God doesn't exist. God's desires are whatever humans say they are. Don`t know about the last part but the first one is true. Christianity really has changed and i`m glad it has. There were many things that were part of it that had nothing to do with it and only managed to hamper it`s true meaning. Whatever "true meaning" Christianity may have had, has been lost 'till now. It's meaning is whatever current Christians say it is. I`m not what my culture allows me to be. I may be born and educated by it, but that`s a view on the world that we only accept if we want to. What i decided to follow - as a lot of people do - is something that exists to mold them. All the things i believe are beyond cultures and my own personal desires. Even the act of thinking freely is only thanks to the fact that we live in a culture that allows this. People in the Middle Ages for example were not allowed or encouraged to think freely, and the overwhelming majority didn't. Yes, we are all actors in play, but each and everyone of us decides it`s role and has a voice on how things should. Of course there are always people that just go with the flow, but that`s their decision. It's debatable how much people's desires are influenced by culture. Would you have wanted soemthing, if culture didn't tell you it was important? Don`t forget that cultures only existed after we searched for ourselves in others. Culture was deve;loped as a system to create, organise and transmit knowledge. The essence of religions is supposed to be of a divine revelation but you can`t just stop there. The meaning behind all those truths is still obscure to us all. Reason is always a tool to help us understand. We can`t honesty say we know it all, because if we said we would be making ourselves God. That`s why morals do change with time as a mean to understand the core values of our lives and God itself. Religions are lies made up by humans to try to give meaning to the world, but also to be used for control and oppression. Religion holds no truth, only lies where people can give no answers. |
"Consensus validates morals, it's not the source of morals. Humans are the source of morals."
Consensus doesn`t validate morals but an expression of those values. If humanity is the source it`s like saying consensus validates us.
Actually ethical systems only change on the outside, which means that the perception of said value can be improved or worsen. Values like dignity and respect always were part of us. Even if they were ignored that doesn`t mean the were meaningless, they just weren`t contemplated as being part of us - when they are part of us as we can`t talk about one value and ignore the rest. They are all connected.
Change/reasoning may bring enlightment and a better perception of what we are. And when that happens we can say it fits.
When we were able to see others as humans it`s not like we invented a new concept of ethics on humanity, we defined it in a better way; we complemented it. That`s what happened throughout history. The core doesn`t change: it gets recognized and and improved.
what societies did with this was a balance of what morals were more relevant in a given time or place.
"moral principles" are nothing but a way to help us elevate ourselves to live what who truly are. Wrkong with the core changes more principles but doesn`t necessarily change one with another. For example, we can talk about dignity now than we could a century ago, not because of consensus per se, but because we are realising with time what that concept truly means.
Understanding an ethical system is understanding ourselves.
"Whatever "true meaning" Christianity may have had, has been lost 'till now. It's meaning is whatever current Christians say it is."
The true meaning of Christianity isn`t what we say, it`s what God and Jesus taught us. Christ is the source of Christianity, not a single person.
"Even the act of thinking freely is only thanks to the fact that we live in a culture that allows this. People in the Middle Ages for example were not allowed or encouraged to think freely, and the overwhelming majority didn't."
Thinking freely is one thing, expressing it is another. The only thing that cultures can opress is expression. I don`t think anyone can stop anyone from thinking what they want, or stop, aswell, what we think is better for ourselves.
"It's debatable how much people's desires are influenced by culture. Would you have wanted soemthing, if culture didn't tell you it was important?"
As is said before, cultures to educate but they don`t makes us unless we tag along. Of course cultures/societies creates desires. Just look how everyone cares so much for being hot or sexy. Is that important in my life as a definition of what i am? No. And that`s all that matters: the ways we define ourselves.
"Culture was developed as a system to create, organise and transmit knowledge."
Cultures are the reflexion of societies. They are even more abstract than societies. And as such they are a posteriori to us and even to what we know of ourselves. Only after i exist, and with that, what we recognize of ourselves, do society and culture exist. They are out product, that´s why can`t a product defines. It does help recognize ourselves, but no more than that.
It`s like making a drawing and then say i am after it`s there. I was there even before i made it. I made with what i am.
"Religions are lies made up by humans to try to give meaning to the world, but also to be used for control and oppression. Religion holds no truth, only lies where people can give no answers."
That`s a very low and very reducionist point of view on what religions are.
Lies made up by humans? And don`t a lot about religions, but the ones i know, they are the product of an history where Gog reveal Itself to us. If you don`t believe in that, as i know you don`t, that`s another thing, but there`s no need to call it lies when you can`t even prove your point.
To be used for control and opression? You are too attached to the bad doings of religions to see beyond that. Christianity for example had the Dark ages. Was it a truthfull voice to Jesus`s life and teachings? No it wasn`t. And everyone can realize that man failed in showing Jesus and God in that.
Religion holds no truth? What truth are you talking about? A truth that you can verify? A truth you can live and feel?
"only lies where people can give no answers." Answers to what? There are certain things that we just can`t explain because it`s beyond us. Can we, believers, explain with 100% accuracy what God is? We are not God to that. Should we throw it away just because it`s not perfect on our end? Only if we are ready to throw ourselves with it as we aren`t perfect and we can`t explain ourselves perfectly.
