George Hotz Runs Away to South America; Lies About Having PSN Account

[Calmador]

fordy said:

Calmador said:

Buddy, your bring in a special situation AND then you tell me the law is A okay with it... anyways I'm not talking about special circumstances, why bring it up? I'm talking about the act of somoene who hasn't bought a game and then downloads it off, whatever means. That being said, assuming what you said is true, I think it's great that the law allows someone to get a digital copy after his/her disc has been destroyed. Now that's progressive and putting technology to use. Because someone bought it and now that someone doesn't have to worry about losing his/her product so easily. Wonderful for those who purchase thier products, WHY NOT? Now onto the real topic...

Again I'm not talking about special circumstances I'm talking about a person who didn't pay for his/her product and then gets the product without paying. The product is the game which is in the form of information. So in short you think if someone gets 100% of a game which is the information/digital part of it, be it from a friend or anywhere else via some torrent site, from the developers themeselves, a friend or any other way, it's not stealing? Just because the physical disc wasn't taken (which isn't even the game), that costs cents, doesn't mean a person hasn't stolen anything. Copying is just a different way of stealing, a sneakier and easier way. The physical part of a game again is worth cents... the game itself is the information/digital part.

Products that are made up of information/digital ... are information/digital and the information/digital part of the product IS the product.

We can argue about what it means to steal, to me it's point blank obvious. But the bottom line is that it's wrong. It's in my opinion that it IS stealing. Because comparing digital/informational theft to physical theft is ridiculous. In physical theft, you go in, take something and that object is gone. Online... people copy and paste essays (plagiarism), people download music off torrent sites.. people download video games... and the information doesn't necessarily dissappear so the products don't HAVE to dissappear to be stolen... so people can still get that information/product and not pay a dime. Just another way to steal products made up of information[period] There are no grey areas, the disc isn't even the game, it only carries the game, the information/digital part IS the game.

It's theft.

The problem with your analogy is that you state that copying is theft, yet you have to concede and make exceptions at every twist and turn. This is why game developers treat games more like patents, and not as sellable assets. It's incredibly difficult to claim ownerhip of digital bits when they can be created at any time.

Once again, morals are just that, opinions on how laws should be,  but the law is the final answer to such an argument. As such, you can never be charged with theft for copying digital material.

The problem isn't with my analogy or whatever I'm saying. The problem is with you taking me out of context. When I use the word copy I meant it within the context about what were talking about which is piracy. Like I said earlier yes making a backup copy of your game is fine. Yes the special situation you mention copying is fine too... but it can immoral in piracy which also involves copying too, THAT is what I'm talking about. I didn't think it would be a problem but I'll try to use the word piracy instead of copying since it is a vague word and if I do use copying please be understanding about it and understand I mean it within context.

No it isn't incredibly difficult to claim ownership of digital bits, but you try to paint a picture where it is. It's simple, you buy it, you get a receipt. There you now have easy claim of digital bits because of a receipt. It's not incredibly hard, it can be if you lose the receipt and you don't have anyone to testify your purchase but that's all we can go by and it's not incredibly hard.

Yes they can be created at anytime, that has nothing to do with how difficult it is to claim that you purchased a copy of digital bits for use. For example, I can also say that it's incrediblly difficult to claim ownership of pots... because they can be created anytime...I don't know where you were going with that but it doesn't make sense.

I can't help but think that your throwing in the towl, by trying to take the conversation to the law. The law is most definitely NOT the final answer because the law can be corrupted. I personally believe only God can have the final say on morals because it would take God to define morals and give true judgement. Who can judge you unless they know absolutely everything about you, even your thoughts? God, but that's me. I understand you may not accept with my God stand but I definitely don't think the law can be the final say because of corruption which history can easily show. That being said I am not saying we can act above the law, I think it's good and moral to respect the law even if it they were unjust to you (not necassarly in general) BUT that's another can of worms. Just clearing it up that I'm not promoting acting out of the law unless of course God himself said so, otherwise respect the government even though it is not perfect.

We'll leave it at that, from what I've heard here from you and from the other guy, I don't think there is any reason to think that piracy is not a form of theft. Plagiarism is widely accepted as theft... while the original copy is intact. Of course more clever plagiarizers don't copy exact dupilicates but that's a petty difference between the comparison. I don't understand why anyone wouldn't think piracy isn't theft, like plagairism.