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fordy on 31 March 2011
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Calmador said:
fordy said:
Calmador said:
vlad321 said:
Calmador said:

'm not wrong.

Your defining theft on whether what you stole is physical or not. I think that doesn't matter.

"In criminal law, theft is the illegal taking of another person's property without that person's freely-given consent"

The only way you can argue that piracy is theft is if you classify ideas as property and that when I buy a game the game isn't mine, but the person to whose idea it is.

However if you go down the path of classifying ideas as properties, you run into so many problems and pitfalls, that you realize it is just silly to consider ideas the same as physical property. Therfore, you are wrong.

I'm not talking about the legal definition. I'm talking about it morally.

Yes intillectual property can be stolen, it is sold for the ownership of ONE person, not as many copies as you can make. You weren't sold infinite copies of the game. It can be stolen, physcially, a game disc from a retail store or just dowloading a copy from a torrent or a copy from a friend. What's not to understand?

EDIT: Thinking about it.. the physical part of the game is worth very little... the value in the game is the information (digital side) to it. That's what truly is being stolen, physical side of it is simply holding the game.

The difference between morals and legality is that morals are individual interpretations of right or wrong. They'll never stand up in court purely because of situational qualities that are not fully understood by those with such morals. Hence, why the legal system is there.

Now, allow me to totally destroy your stance here. Say that I make a copy of a game for my friend, who had a copy of the game at one stage and his disc was destroyed. By your logic and morals, that's an illegal thing to do. However, legally it is perfectly fine. Why? Because when you buy a game, you do not actually buy it. You cannot own a game, unless you're the publisher. What is compromised in acts of piracy is the end user license purchased to play that game.

The act of physically copying the game is not a crime. There's a reason why it's not called stealing. If you drive a car unlicensed, you're not stealing the roads.

The end user license gives the user the right to circumvent copyright for themselves only. Therefore, if you play the game without a license, it's regarded as copyright theft, and not stealing. It's the same background as agreements with patent holders in order to use their property. Does this mean that Sony "stole" the Dualshock technology when it violated Immersion's patent?

Buddy, your bring in a special situation AND then you tell me the law is A okay with it... anyways I'm not talking about special circumstances, why bring it up? I'm talking about the act of somoene who hasn't bought a game and then downloads it off, whatever means. That being said, assuming what you said is true, I think it's great that the law allows someone to get a digital copy after his/her disc has been destroyed. Now that's progressive and putting technology to use. Because someone bought it and now that someone doesn't have to worry about losing his/her product so easily. Wonderful for those who purchase thier products, WHY NOT? Now onto the real topic...

Again I'm not talking about special circumstances I'm talking about a person who didn't pay for his/her product and then gets the product without paying. The product is the game which is in the form of information. So in short you think if someone gets 100% of a game which is the information/digital part of it, be it from a friend or anywhere else via some torrent site, from the developers themeselves, a friend or any other way, it's not stealing? Just because the physical disc wasn't taken (which isn't even the game), that costs cents, doesn't mean a person hasn't stolen anything. Copying is just a different way of stealing, a sneakier and easier way. The physical part of a game again is worth cents... the game itself is the information/digital part.

Products that are made up of information/digital ... are information/digital and the information/digital part of the product IS the product.

We can argue about what it means to steal, to me it's point blank obvious. But the bottom line is that it's wrong. It's in my opinion that it IS stealing. Because comparing digital/informational theft to physical theft is ridiculous. In physical theft, you go in, take something and that object is gone. Online... people copy and paste essays (plagiarism), people download music off torrent sites.. people download video games... and the information doesn't necessarily dissappear so the products don't HAVE to dissappear to be stolen... so people can still get that information/product and not pay a dime. Just another way to steal products made up of information[period] There are no grey areas, the disc isn't even the game, it only carries the game, the information/digital part IS the game.

It's theft.

The problem with your analogy is that you state that copying is theft, yet you have to concede and make exceptions at every twist and turn. This is why game developers treat games more like patents, and not as sellable assets. It's incredibly difficult to claim ownerhip of digital bits when they can be created at any time.

Once again, morals are just that, opinions on how laws should be,  but the law is the final answer to such an argument. As such, you can never be charged with theft for copying digital material.