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That's kind of my point robjoh, it's a huge fall from being a console manufaturer and industry leader to where Sega are now, i.e. can't even afford to make their own engines and haven't had a decent seller in years. Makes me a bit sad that Sega seem to contribute very little to the VG world these days. I wouldn't hold out much hope for any of their upcoming U3 engine games. Let's hope they don't screw up Nights like they did Sonic. *sigh*