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pizzahut451 on 23 August 2010
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Scoobes said:
pizzahut451 said:
Scoobes said:

You seem to mix up the definition of evidence with conjecture and heresay. I'll try and cover each of your points before moving onto the article you posted:

1. Voices and languages: Its well known that people can change their voice or start to speak fluently in other languages after head injuries. You seem to underestimate the complexity of the human brain.

Ok this is the 3rd time im trying to respond to this post, but my post always dissapers for no reason. FUCK VGC 3. Fix your fucking forum glitches already. Its getting really anoying.

Anyway, are you kidding me? A head injury makes you speak the real demonic language that you NEVER heard before that only priests with high religious education can understand??? (Note this is not just some gibberish for lunutics) And the head injury also makes you change your voice from human to something that isnt either human or animal ( Please note that chaging the sound of your voice isnt the same as chaging it to something un-human)???

2. Levitation: There really was no evidence for this in the article. Just a few eye witness accounts in 1906 Africa where people are very superstitious even now. Did you not ask yourself about the validity of the witnesses? You can't put someone in jail based on a potentially unreliable witness, yet you're ready to believe in demonic possesion?

See, this is why i am annoyed at you. You keep saying ''no evidance'' when evidence is right in front of you. People saw it with their own eyes and yet you keep denying it, its almost like you're affraid of the truth or simply just dont wanna accept it no matter what. I have given everything to prove demonic possesions are real, now why dont you give me something that says they are not real??? Its incredibly easy to just sit and say ''well, maybe...''  You know damn well that nothing can make a person fly so you had to find something on which you could say ''oh wait, this here MIGHT be wrong, so you HAVE TO be wrong''.

3. Killing family: This happens all the time. Why do you think its demonic possesion? Why aren't they just a socio-path or have pent up anger issues directed towards family members.

Because the guy  has been involved in a few of instances which could lead to conclusion that he had problems with demonic possession

4. Priest stopping behaviour: Again, no evidence of demonic possesion, just the belief that exorcism will get rid of a "demon" is enough for some people to stop their strange behaviour and get them out of their trance or alternative states of consciousness. If you really want evidence then find a brain scan during an exorcism. The only time I've seen this done, the effect on the brain was the same as that of meditation or prayer. This is predominantly in response to case 5 in the article.

More denial, i see. And exorcism wasnt always succesfull (in fact, its rare), so that alone disporeves your entire point

As for the article, don't you think it's odd that the weirdest stories are all from a long time ago? Like 100 years minimum when technology and our understanding of the brain was close to nil. Even in case 3, the boy was cured after 2 months of therapy on top of the "exorcisms". The concept of an exorcisms may work to help improve a patient, but that doesn't prove demonic possesion, simply that it helps a patients psychological well-being.

Why does the year matter? These are 5 MOST NOTABLE examples. Even todays technology cant explain some of  the things that happend to those people, so the year is irrelevant.

Finally, I really find that picture of Anneliese Michel very telling. How can you look at that pic and not think "anorexic"?

Yes, she refused to eat food for months before she died, instead she ate bugs and insects.

Seriously, I think you should read a quality Psychology text book, then look back at these cases and seperate the evidence from heresay.

 

 




1. Yes, head injuries can make you do absurd things. Also, what's a real demonic language? The fact that people know it kinda means its possible for humans to understand it doesn't it? Making it completely feasible that a human can speak it.

I said ONLY PRIESTS WITH VERY HIGH BIBLICAL AND RELIGOUS KNOWLEDGE can understand it. Other people cant. And you cant just learn something that exclusive and hard like language of demons just because you have head injury. My aunt had a hard head injury when she was 8 (she's mentaly illl now) how come she cant speak that language????

2. Take something like that into a court room, they'll always question the validity of the witnesses. Here we have no info on the witnesses, so no, it's not evidence at all. It amounts to heresay. You getting annoyed doesn't change that. And who's to say that those people lied???? We have no reason to believe that they lied. I think you just love telling yourself that, because you provided absolutely nothing to prove your point, so you just keep saying ''its not demonic possesion, its maybe this'' or '' maybe those people lied''. And thats why im annoyed at you. Its pretty easy just to sit and deny everything that is given to you as an evidence. So until you prove that they were lying, we're just gonna have to trust them on this one huh? I mean, thats how they do it in a court room.

3. Just because their is a claim to demonic possesion doesn't make it so, especially with such a wealth of other possible explainations that make more sense.

Ok, so the claim of other people doesnt make it so, the claim of people who were possesd themselfes doesnt make it so, the claim of priests doesnt make it so, so let me ask you one question. WHAT EXACTLY MAKES IT SO ???????? I think the people who think the're possesed know a LOT better whats happening to them than anyone else. But agian, the power of denial cant be beaten.

4. No it doesn't. Again, your ignorance of human psyche is telling. Different people react differently to different situations, and I very much doubt these are the same mental problems that lead to claims of demonic possesion. I never said they were 100% successful, in fact I think most other therapies would be far more sucessful. But in a few particular cases, the exorcism had a positive effect and I gave a explaination as to why that was so.So lets assume that the person is schizophrenic. The person eats bugs, drinks its own urine, refuses to eat, the icon of christ upsets it and it speaks the language unkown to most humans with the voice that is neither human or animal, and some people claim they saw it flying of the ground. So yeah, its a pretty hardcore schizophrenia. The preson believes its possesed even though its not. So the priest comes and says couple of prayers and perfromes exorcism and by some miracle, that horrible and bizzare schizophrenic behavoiur dissapears just like that because the person believed the demon went away??? Yeah, makes perfect sense.

5. You're so ready to believe heresay and conjecture it's incredible. How can you be sure our understandings of modern medicine wouldn't have lead to different outcomes without a time machine. No archaeologist or historian would take what's been written their as hard fact. They'd need far more actual substantive evidence. Nothing you've presented here could be considerred anything more than heresay. I'm not sure why you don't get that.You missed my point. I said today's technology cant explain those things, and it probably never will, because they are supernatural.

6. So you admit she had anorexia. Considerring this and the fact her symptoms are typical of a range of mental problems you still think she was possesed?I never denied she had anorexia. She denied to eat, and to drink holy water. Maybe the demon inside of her didnt allow it ? I mean, why else whouldnt she wanna drink holy water if she knows it can only help her????

As Rath pointed out the article itself is dodgy as it cites no sources. You keep mistaking heresay as evidence. For instance, if I tell people "I saw my mother-in-law talking in strangely and in unknown languages  and floating in the air", I'm lying (except maybe the talking strangely part); that's not evidence, it's heresay. Just because it was written down and someone says it's true, doesn't make it so.

And exactly what kind of evidance do you people give? ABSOLUTLY NOTHING!!! A big 0. At least i provided something that leads to my poinr. Like i said, its pretty easy just to sit and deny everything. So come on, give me some of your own evidance that support your point. I would be more than happy to deny them all, like you are doing. :)

Like I said at the start of this, you're not convincing anyone with this.

As far as i am concerd, i won this argument, i provided much more stuff that supports my point, than you did. You just kept denying everything, with nothing that disporves my point. You dont have to believe at anything. I cant convince you. I was just trying to prove those possesions were real. Its entirely up to you on what you wanna believe in.