Slimebeast said:
| highwaystar101 said:
No. I said legal immigrants are likely have the same criminal ratio as the population of the country that they are entering, and I think that is correct, as Mafoo has already covered.
But where mafoo didn't defend my comment about desperation, I will. Mafoo looked at it on a domestic scale, and I don't think that works as I'm talking about these factors on a global scale. He is in essence correct with his statement, there is no real correlation between crime and poverty on a domestic scale in the west. In a rich country like the USA even the poorest get things like access to basic medical care, subsidies for food and child benefits, which all aid them into not resorting to a life of crime through desperation, and if they do, these countries have the infrastructure to deal with criminal activity. But this doesn't work on a global scale, which is what I'm saying.
Do you think that the pirates (essentially thieves) in Somalia resort to such a lifestyle out of choice? Do you think they do it because it is cool? It would need a pretty blinkered view of the world to think that. Or do you think they do it because they live in one of the poorest countries of the world? Where they don't even have a legitimate government, let alone one that could support them.
I can cite examples like this over and over again where crime is a byproduct of desperation; the drug cartels of South America, the corrupt governments of Africa, the high rates of counterfeit goods manufacturing in Asia, etc...
On a whole the world is not a nice place to live, and unfortunately people in some of the poorest areas crime is just a way of life.
I wish I could get some statistics but unfortunately in a lot of these places they don't even have a structured government to capture the criminals and measure the crime rates properly, so most of the statistics only account for first world countries, which is unfortunate.
But I would like to leave you with an anecdote from the Somalian singer K'naan (he did the "wave your flag" song for the world cup)...
"All Somalis know that gangsterism isn't to brag about. The kids that I was growing up with [in Rexdale] would wear baggy [track] suit pants, and a little jacket from Zellers or something, and they'd walk into school, and all the cool kids would be like, 'Ah, man, look at these Somalis. Yo, you're a punk!' And the other kid won't say nothing, but that kid, probably, has killed fifteen people."
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It's tiresome to argue with you because you're on another planet. The politically correct fantasy world.
I do not agree with a single thing in your post but I'm just gonna comment on thing: Somali pirates.
That comment shows how your bias distorts your view on reality. Like a typical Westerner you assume that only because it's a poor country in the developing world they're becoming pirates out of desperation and having no choice.
You ever even thought what type of people these pirates are? They're not exactly momma's boys or starving. They're thugs. It's organized crime. And this phenomenon occurs in Somalia because Somalia doesn't have a government or coastguard (among other factors souch as the highly criminal clan structures in the country, repeated civil wars, general moral corruption etc).
"the lucrative success of many hijacking operations have drawn a number of young men toward gangs of pirates, whose wealth and strength often make them part of the local social and economic elite. Abdi Farah Juha who lives in Garoowe (100 miles from the sea) told the BBC, "They have money; they have power and they are getting stronger by the day. [...] They wed the most beautiful girls; they are building big houses; they have new cars; new guns.""
"According to a BBC report, the pirates can be divided into three main categories:
- Local Somali fishermen, considered the brains of the pirates' operations due to their skill and knowledge of the sea. Most think that foreign boats have no rights to cruise next to the shore and destroy their boats.
- Ex-militiamen who used to fight for the local clan warlords, used as the muscle.
- Technical experts who operate equipment such as GPS devices.[18]"
"The funding of piracy operations is now structured in a stock exchange, with investors buying and selling shares in upcoming attacks in a bourse in Harardhere."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy_in_Somalia
But no, poor pirates have no choice!
And "drug cartels of South America" being another byproduct of desperation. That's a huge insult towards honest poor people. Like nearly all socialists you have a very bad understanding of human nature.
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Slimebeast, you need to calm down, seriously. I mean I try to remain civil, I always try to be nice in debate, but that's not good enough for you. You can't stand people who have opposing views, to the point that you have to resort to childish name calling, calling me a "socialist", when I think it is blatantly obvious that I'm not. It seems as though today you can't support national health without being labelled a "Socialist", "Communist", "Nazi" or all of the above. It's not like I want to move to Laos or something, not even close. And you have the audacity to call me the insulting one?
...
Anyway, you accuse me of having such a blinkered "westerner" view, when in the very source you gave said...
"A United Nations report suggests that piracy off of the coast of Somalia is caused by illegal fishing and the dumping of toxic waste in Somali waters by foreign vessels, practices which have severely constrained the ability of local fishermen to earn a living and forced many to turn to pirating instead."
Did you skip that out? And you tried to take your one quote so laughably out of context that I don't even know what to say, except for provide the beginning of the quote which makes your quote fit more in line with my viewpoint...
"Millions of Somalis depend on food aid and in 2008, according to the World Bank, as much as 73% of the population lived on a daily income below $2.These factors and the lucrative success of many hijacking operations have drawn a number of young men toward gangs of pirates."
Somalis require food aid just to eat! That is what I would call desperation. All your quote showed was that those Somalis who had resorted to crime seemed better off than the population, so it attracts more of the millions of impoverished people who need aid just to survive from day to day to join them to seek a better life, which is far more in line with my viewpoint than yours.
