Vietnam won or lost?

[Sqrl]

Garnett said:

Sqrl said:

Well the goal was eventually achieved, just not through the use of the military.

Given that fact we definitely eventually "won" the country in terms of communism VS capatalism.

But Vietnamn the "war" I don't think there is any real measure in which it could be said we lost militarily, so I think the best way to describe it is simply to say we were defeated politically. 

Still we did get what we wanted....so if that is how you define winning then I suppose you would call it a win.

 

That is true however, the goal wasnt achieved because of the U.S.

 

(back on the holocaust/ vietnam comparsion) its like if the jewish people did die off, Hitlers not gonna say "i killed the jewish people" because he wasnt. He failed when he tried it. Even though it was achived eventually, he failed when he tried, no if and's or butts. It did happen but it wasnt because of your efforts hitler.

A person cant claim success after he has failed.

 

Another comparsion is if i told people that i was going to build a rocketship in less than 2 months and about 3 weeks into it i realize that i cant do it and i call it quits. I lose.

The hitler analogy is kind of a bad one...the descendants of those Jews are largely also jewish...the descendants in Vietnam are no longer living in a complete communist state.  Add to that the fact that the US has continually applied political pressure to support democracy and capatalism all throughout the world (which vietnam is a part of =P) and I think it would be disengenous to claim that the US had nothing to do with it. 

It is certainly true that the US didn't singlehandedly end communism in Vietnam, but it has played a role.  You can debate how much of a role if you'd like, but its nothing like your hitler analogy.

As far as your last analogy, it holds a grain of truth in the sense that the war effort was long over before the situation changed, and in the sense that the war effort was intended to do the job you have a point.  But nobody ever said "if this plan doesn't work we are absolutely done....finished...failures". It's not a one-shot deal...if your first attempt fails you aren't forced to just accept it and never be able to try again.  And given how the overt attempt at changing the situation turned out, I think the concept of a subtle approach makes quite a bit of sense for a second attempt =P