Since this thread is still going and Reasonable brought up Ratatouille, i thought i should get back to this. As Khuutra pointed out, kraftmanship and artistic skills aren't exclusive to each other and one could argue whether Remys talent was because of his craftmanship - though, the analogy still works since the talent relied on his nose.
Then again, Reasonable pointed out that he consideres some games being art, or close to it. The problem? He was pointing out that games can't be art, because the art relies on non-game element, or to put it in another way games can't be art before they cease being games. If games can be art, they are art because of their own right, not by imitating something else. And this is why Ebert owned Santiago, who suggested that games are art because of the ability to imitate something else - or to become non-games.
Instead of looking at what is art, we should look at what art isn't, as liar's paradox suggests.
Art is non-business. Everywhere in the business world there's the clash between the creative guys and the business guys. The business guys wants the product to sell, while the creative guys just wants to create something "cool".
Art is non-entainment. In every medium there is, every time someone manages to put out something entertaining - whether it be Harry Potter, Britney Spears, Wii Sports, an action movie - it's always dissed as non-art.
Obviously, Ebert acknowleges this, and Santiago was just a sitting duck for his to shoot, since all Santiago did was to point out games with commercial success.
Where Ebert failed badly was with the rules. If you make movie, music or book, you need to have rules in it. Without the rules, your creation is a complete mess.
Then again, winning the game is only getting to end of the game and the whole "winning" was only saying that playing a game isn't art, while watching a movie or reading a book is.
In the end, i do agree with Ebert that games aren't art, but where i likely disagree him is, that movies, music and books aren't art either.
Ei Kiinasti.
Eikä Japanisti.
Vaan pannaan jalalla koreasti.
Nintendo games sell only on Nintendo system.
