Which is moraly (not legaly) worse? Secondhand _ Pirating _ Renting_Lending

[vlad321]

ZenfoldorVGI said:

vlad321 said:

ZenfoldorVGI said:

aher052 said:
I mean if the person was never gonna pay 80 bucks for a game and they pirate it, the dev doesnt actually lose anything because if they were not able to pirate it then they would have never bought the game....so in a way to those people who pirate it is better for the dev that they do pirate that game because if they get into it they will tell their friends etc and can even buy DLC or buy the next installment so the dev makes money....better that than nothing

If you're not going to buy it, you shouldn't get to own it for free. How's that for obvious morality? Maybe if they couldn't pirate those games they might have to buy them once in a while. Saying "I wouldn't have bought it anyway" isn't a valid argument, because we don't live in a world where piracy doesn't exist. If it didn't, who knows what you would have bought? Your game library would be much smaller, and you might be more open to game purchases. Again, without money changing hands, you are a leech to the industry. You don't stimulate its economy. You are a gamer, but contribute nothing to gaming. Without people to contribute, there would be no gaming. Pirates take for free what they haven't paid for. Used gamers always pay for their games, and that stimulates the gaming economy and benefits the developers indirectly.

If you guys are still arguing over this, I suggest you read my first post.

The only indirect benefit is because it gives money to middlemen. Any industry is better off without a middlemen, in fact if I can help the middle man go bankrupt I gladly will and anything that helps out the middleman isn't a god thing. As I siad, Valve is a shining example of an independent developer not in need of middlemen, hence with their games the second hand market is as useless as the pircy market. At least for their games.

That's a flawed argument. Your opinion of what you consider "middlemen" has nothing to do with this conversation, and claiming they have no use, is ignorance Vlad.

Without middlemen, we would have no small business. Everyone would buy everything from the manufacturer. Truth is, without middlemen, nobody would ever buy anything from anyone. The developer isn't equipped to distrubute their games. By your logic, Amazon and Walmart should shut their doors, because they are middlemen. It's ignorant, and if we did do away with the middlemen, we would have no jobs, no games, and no economy. Period. It shows a basic misunderstanding of how the economy needs to work. "Middlemen" benefit everyone, even the developer and especially the customer. It's such a fallacy to demonize them.

Anyway, again, your opinion doesn't matter. Those retailers are part of the industry, and wheather you think they deserve to profit from the industry they are a part of, or not, they certainly do profit from used games, but they don't from piracy.

Thus, the flaw.

I show you the obvious difference between piracy and used games sales, being used games sales are sanctioned and benefitting to the video game industry, and you tell me "that part of the industry is stupid."

WTF do you think Steam is? You think they just sell Valve games? It's a middleman in a different form.

Just give it up bro. There is no getting around the fact that with used games, or rentals, money changes hands, and with piracy it doesn't. With used games, you always pay for your game, and that money goes into the economy. With piracy, you pay nothing, and there is no money.

That's it. There is no need to just keep beating a dead horse when you can never get around that fact. It's real, and it's true. You don't want it to mean as much as it does, but really, it means everything.

Steam is far better off than Gamestop. When you buy Half-Life themoney goes from your credit card, right into Valve's. Not the case with other people's games, yes, but I'm using Valve as an example here. In the end "this part of the industry is stupid" factor just fine in any morals. It's immoral for someone to make money when they haven't done anything to create something, especially such a large percentage.

@everyone else who throws your rights at me

Have you EVER read a EULA? Here I'll post some here which are pretty good.

FALLOUT 3: http://www.amazon.com/Fallout-EULA-No-Activation-Nonsense/forum/Fx1MQDSV0QAZ27S/Tx2VIWKCG4UJJ2G/1?_encoding=UTF8&asin=B000UU5T7E

Noteable quote :

"ICENSE. Subject to this Agreement and its terms and conditions, LICENSOR hereby grants you the non-exclusive, non-transferable, limited right and license to use one copy of the Software for your personal, non-commercial use on a single home or portable computer. The Software is being licensed to you and you hereby acknowledge that no title or ownership in the Software is being transferred or assigned and this Agreement should not be construed as a sale or transfer of any rights in the Software. All rights not specifically granted under this Agreement are reserved by LICENSOR and, as applicable, its licensors."

World of Warcraft:  http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/legal/eula.html

Noteable Quote: "Subject to your agreement to and continuing compliance with this License Agreement, Blizzard hereby grants, and you hereby accept, a limited, non-exclusive license to (a) install the Game Client on one or more computers owned by you or under your legitimate control,"

Warcraft 3: http://serghei.org/docs/games/warcraft3_support/Readme/EULA.html

Noteable Quote: " 

You are entitled to use the Program for your own use, but You are not entitled to:

1. sell or grant a security interest in or transfer reproductions of the Program to other parties in any way, nor to rent, lease, or license the Program to others without the prior written consent of Blizzard."

This has been pretty standard, and if you want to see wha tthe standard definition of IP is then this is it:

"All title, ownership, and intellectual property rights in and to the Program and any and all copies thereof (including, but not limited to, any titles, computer code, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, dialog, catch phrases, locations, concepts, artwork, animations, sounds, musical compositions, audio-visual effects, methods of operation, moral rights, any related documentation, and "applets" incorporated into the Program)"

Meaning what is on the disc is THEIR intellectul property not yours. Also you can't sell your lecense to use their intellectual property to others, only they can license their property to others. Imagine that....

@Wonk

If you don't wanna buy it new or forever then don't buy it at all. You don't have to play that game. If you feel you need to play it then buy it, if not then don't play it.