BBC: Horizon - Consciousness and free will

[Final-Fan]

Rath said:

Final-Fan said:

Rath said:
@ultima. He's claiming that Heisenberg's Uncertainty is in fact not uncertain. It is possible but entirely without evidence.

All the evidence right now points to a non-deterministic universe.

But as the quote I gave says, there is randomness.  Whether the specific outcomes are determined by some other thing that is actually the source of the randomness is irrelevant to the fact that the randomness exists and in the end emanates from those occurrences in quantum physics.  

Am I wrong?   

What slimebeast is saying is that it isn't random, it just appears random because we can't see what is causing it. Like how a coin flip appears random but is in fact if you look at the underlying details it is bound to end up one way from the moment it is flipped.

I disagree with him, but that is his what I think he is saying.

"Contrary to classical physics, quantum physics is fundamentally random. It is the only theory within the fabric of modern physics that integrates randomness. This fact was very disturbing to physicists like Einstein who invented quantum physics. However, its intrinsic randomness has been confirmed over and over again by theoretical and experimental research conducted since the first decades of the XXth century."

(I suppose the following is hardly news to you but I feel the need to elaborate)
The "randomness" of classical physics, e.g. rolling dice or flipping coins, is merely determinism behind a veil of uncertainty (values we cannot reasonably calculate).  This is very different from the true randomness found in quantum physics, which (from what I gather) has actually been proven in the math and in the lab.  
(end recap)

The only argument slimebeast can really make IMO is that this randomness is not part of quantum physics itself but some more fundamental thing(s) (presumably fundamental only to QP and not CP) and QP's randomness is deterministically derived from those fundamentals.  But IMO this possibility ultimately does not change the situation at all for the purposes of this discussion.