The fight over Darwin - Teaching evolution in schools

[Final-Fan]

appolose said:

Final-Fan said:

appolose said:

Final-Fan said:

appolose said:

Final-Fan said:

He was just pointing out that multiple phenomena are not necessary.  

And supposing that it was shown that mass was being created without any apparent use of or decline in energy, that might unseat much of physics but science is not capable of concluding that a supernatural force is the cause of any phenomenon.  "For reasons unknown" is the closest it can come.  And "for reasons unknown" is all that would happen, not "oops we can't answer this (YET) so I guess the scientific method should be discarded".  

To say "For reasons unknown" is to imply that one of your well-established observations is false, which goes back to the problem of contradicting that basic tenet.  Since we can't have contradiction, it's either science goes or the supernatural comes (I posit).

How can an observation of a phenomenon itself contradict another observation?  Sure, it can contradict a theory, but that leaves open the potential that a correct (other) explanation exists.  So no matter how many theories you destroy, there is always the possibility that we have simply not thought of the correct theory to explain what has happened, unless you somehow prove that no natural explanation can possibly exist.  

So if apples start falling up instead of down and it can't be reconciled with gravity as we know it, then our understanding of gravity is wrong [edit:  (or we're missing some other factor overpowering gravity)], but that doesn't mean there's NO scientific explanation for things falling up and down.  

Kinda funny how the "can't prove a negative" atheists face is going the other way now.   

My example to Rath is just that:  It is observed (hypothetically) that matter cannot be created physically, then observed that matter comes into existence.  These are contradictory if you don't invoke the supernatural, are they not?  For how could matter become without physical means if the physical is all there is?

For your example; yes, I've acknowledged that to Khuutra.  My example is not such a situation.  Your's entails having a well-established observation become a not-well-established observation.  Mine, on the other hand, shows two well-established observations that are not contradictory unless the sole existence of the phsyical is assumed.

How exactly could you "observe" that matter cannot be created?  It's nonsensical.  The most you could say is "I have never seen this happen."  "This cannot happen" is a THEORY derived from never seeing it happen.  Which would then be shown to be incorrect.  

Your hypothetical observation is impossible.   

What are you talking about?  It's (or, at least was) a law in physics.

Edit: And that is how science operates: after a number of "I have seen this", it becomes a "This always is".

You said "IT IS OBSERVED that matter cannot be created etc. etc."  Not that it was mathematically impossible.  

It's either a scientific theory based on observation, 
or a fact (proven theorem) of mathematics.  

If it's the first, then your hypothetical scenario makes no sense.  If it's the second, then why did you ask me to "imagine that the math doesn't work"?  Because clearly, for the purposes of this discussion, you cannot simultaneously invoke the fact that it does and the idea that it doesn't.  

And since you SPECIFICALLY TOLD ME that your supposed contradiction was found because of two contradicting observations, your objection maddens me.  

I'm going to work in a bit.   

Responding to your edit:  AND THAT'S WHAT THEY CALL A FUCKING THEORY!