Top 10 Breakthrough PC Games

[vlad321]

Kenryoku_Maxis said:

Final-Fan said:

Kenryoku_Maxis said:

Final-Fan said:

Kenryoku_Maxis said:
Also, I'd like to point out, while it may seem that all units in Starcraft are 'unique', they are...sort of.  Marines are still comperable to Zerglings, who are still comperable to Zelots.  And etc on down the line.  They all have unique abilities and Str/HP, but they still serve the same purpose for their specific race.  And that's what makes Starcraft work.  All three races are in a triangle balance with each other (though Terran is arguably overpowered).  Why is it so bad that AOE3 has similar units, when there's 14 different races?  Or do we have to make up a different kind of swordsman for French troops than Spanish?  After you go beyond 4 races, balancing becomes an issue.  Again, that's how Starcraft works so well, because it stuck to 3 races.

I'm not going to try to comment on "StarCraft vs. AoE/CoH" because it's trench warfare and I don't even know the other ones too well.  And to be honest, it's been a long time since I played StarCraft.  Nevertheless:

Your assertion that Zerglings/Marines/Zealots are all 'basically the same' just because they're the cheapest basic combat unit is just wrong.  Zerglings require different tactics to use effectively compared to using Marines of Zealots.  Marines can shoot at air units while the other two can't, and Marines are ranged and the other two aren't.  Ranged fire is a HUGE difference -- not just because a ranged unit gets "free" hits before the other unit closes, but because it's easier to gang up without having to be physically adjacent to the target.  The Zealot, meanwhile, although behaving similarly to the Zergling, is a massively stronger unit.

I'd say the Hydralisk is closer to being a counterpart to the Marine than the Zergling is, or rather the Marine is in between the two of them in power.  Which just proves that there is no direct equivalent.  You can't just use the same tactics with another race. 

It's true that with huge numbers of races, balancing completely different unit types would become an unreasonably difficult task to ask of a game maker -- but why does that give the game a pass?  It's their fault for insisting on tons of races, knowing that that would be a consequence.  Or you can argue that the unique units/abilities that the races DO get make up for it when there are so many to pick from -- but if so, say that instead of making excuses. 

1) I didn't say those three base units (Zergling/Marine/Zelot) are 'basically the same'.  I said they complement each other in a triange based counter system.  If anything, your long analysis once again provided a detailed example of how Terran has a one up on the other races.

2) I wasn't trying to provide an 'excuse' to why games with more than 3-4 races don't have more unique units.  Its more like defending games for actually trying to move the genre forward, among the many people who just say 'Starcraft is perfect, everything else after sucks because its not Starcraft'.  People provide countless examples, and one major example is always 'Well all the races seem the same and use similar units'.  I just provided a counter point showing how not all the races are the same while also showing how the units in Starcraft are unique, but also fit the same specific molds in each race (light infantry, heavy infantry, light armor, heavy armor, light air, heavy air, reconnaissance unit, defense turret, etc).  Yes, the units in Starcraft also come with unique abilities that make them different from the other races, but they still conform to their roles as these basic unit types.  And to say AOE (or any other RTS, like Red Alert or Company of Heroes) sucks because they don't provide as much 'variety' as Starcraft, is simply ridiculous.  In some ways, other RTS games provide more variety and more units.  Take Age of Mythologies or Company of Heroes for instance.

Triangle-based counter system?  If you mean like those Rock/Paper/Scissors unit advantages, I disagree.  And as for Terrans having an advantage, they may for those types of units, but show me the Terran equivalent of the Carrier?  There isn't one.  Terrans are great, I love that race, but the Marines' versatility is balanced by other things. 

It seems to be like you are contradicting yourself when you say that those three units are not 'basically the same' and then turn around and say they "fit the same specific mold".  They're the same but different?? 

For another example, take your "reconnaissance unit":  The Protoss get Observers, which have basically no equivalent unit in the other races IIRC (the Terrans get that satellite ability and the Zerg have Queens' Parasites...). 

I'm not saying AoE "sucks" because it doesn't have unique races, I'm just taking issue with your apparent downplaying of the uniqueness of SC's races.  The games are very different, perhaps to the point where you are having trouble wrapping your head around the fact that many units just don't have direct equivalents in another race in SC because you are more used to AoE and similar games.  (I admit that is total speculation.)

Uh....the Terran equivalent to a Carrier is the Battle Cruiser.  I don't really see how there's any question of that.  Yes, they do completely different functions, but again, they basically compliment each other for being so opposite of each other.  One is a giant ship that fires large bursts of charged energy while the other sends out individual smaller ships to attack.  But its been shown time and again that a fleet of Battle Cruisers can take on a fleet of Carriers with good micromanagement.  As for the reconnaissance unit, the Terrans get the Science Vessal...and Turrets, Ghosts AND scanning from their Command Center.  In that regard, yes, it isn't a direct correlation...its rather unbalanced seeing as how much detection and reconnaissance ability the Terrans get .  As for the Zerg, they simply get the Scourge and Overlords.  But they're suppose to be the fastest race so they supposedly make up for it.

And again, I'm NOT saying that the units are basically the same.  I don't know how many times I have to say this.  I've said it every time now.  The units in Starcraft all have their unique roles that makes them unique.  But it is obvious how they were also created with the idea of trying to keep to the standards of the genre such as having a light infantry unit, a heavy infantry unit, a light armor, a heavy armor, etc.  They also have a few unique units in there (like Templars, Archons, Queens or cloaked reconnaissance units).  You need to realize, I'm NOT downplaying their unique characteristics.  Yes, a Zelot can overtake up to 4 zerglings by itself or be very effective against Marines with Leg Upgrades.  But you do need to understand, they still are both light infantry units.

On the same token, most other RTS games have the same exact setup of units countering other units.  And I feel many people just don't give them credit or even look very far into their gameplay because they simply 'aren't Starcraft'.  There's no denying that Starcraft was one of the first RTS games to balance the gameplay, but as I already said, that's because they limited the races down to 3.  Now we have tons of RTS games out where there's any number of races, from 4 (Company of Heroes/Dawn of War/Age of Mythology) up to 14 (Age of Empires series).  But I think its pretty petty to just say Age of Empires loses points just because they branched out and tried to add more races and scope to the genre.  And with the latest incarnation, they even added tons of unique units and abilities to each race.

In any event, if you really want to say Starcraft is the king of RTS because it seems to have the most unique features with each unit, then other RTS games like Age of Mythology or Company of Heroes has already surpassed it.  But I'm sure you're also meaning kind of what I'm meaning, unique units that compliment each other in a balance. 

Bolded part is where it shows you know nothing. Do you realize that the Probe of the Protoss is the best unit for scouting? It's always invisible and relatively heap. As for Zerg they pump out overlords nonstop for food supplies so they have an endless supply of them.  That is what gets hthem balanced out. As for the BC vs Carrier, they are completely differen.t Diferent costs, different stats, hell even different attacks.

Also please tell me where you put zerglings in. Light infantry? What's the hydralisk then? And the dragoon compared to the firebat? Or the ultalisks. Hell the zerg don't even have a BC or Carrier equivalent, but they do have an Ultralisk, which is the equivalent of what for the other races?

You can draw equivalents between some units (beginning and end) but there are some where it's impossible. What do you equate archons or siege tanks or goliaths with?

The SC races are so diferent that even their building systems are completely diferent.