Xbox 360 defects: an inside history of Microsoft’s video game console woes

[Final-Fan]

Squilliam said:

Final-Fan said:

Squilliam said:
Actually the failure rate for the GPU has been listed at 20-40% and the warranties on the laptops gpus are being extended (RROD warranty take 2?). But the thing is, these designs were tested by computer hardware companies no less. Dell/HP etc were caught with their pants down there and it wasn't due to incompetence on their part. Furthermore Nvidia pretty much blamed everyone but themselves for the problem and denied it until the last possible moment.

The Xbox 360 GPU has a similar problem with its own packaging. The solder joints break and one of the simple fixes for this is the Xclamp mod which applies increased pressure to the GPU die to force the solder joins back together. Its even possible that due to differences in manufacturing vs test units the problems were not aparent until manufacturing due to the use of lead solder in the hand built testing units. It was only once they were mass produced that the problems started showing up en masse. No company knowing the full gravity of the error would actually go ahead a release a unit like that.

You misunderstand.  Did NVidia deny the very existence of the problem to a comparable degree?  Source on that failure rate please -- I cannot find confirmation.  Also, if I am not mistaken NVidia is REPLACING the defective parts, which puts them a step up from the "musical broken chairs" strategy of MS.

(Based on this article I found, I'm happy to agree that NVidia's blame game lies were almost as outrageous as MS's.  It's hard to say whether the debacle would have dragged out as much as the RRoD denial if it were lowly customers instead of business partners breathing down its neck.)

Please don't make shit up.  If you have a source for the test vs. production claim, then I apologize and ask if that isn't a sign of rushed QC and/or poor planning/engineering caused by it?  IIRC, reports are that there were actually some signs of a problem within MS but one hand didn't know what the other was getting burnt by.

http://forums.maxconsole.net/showthread.php?t=98040

"another factor in this equation is that most electronics factories had to switch to lead free solder. everyone knows lead free solder doesn't have the same holding characteristics as the older lead based solder and once lead free solder gets hot, it seems to not bind as well thus causing connections between components (bga and others) to fail. that's why designs have to be made with lead free in mind before production has begun.

the design of the 360 i believe was finalized before the ban on lead based solder being used by electronics manufacturers. i think alot of the 360's issues also stem from the lead free solder that is used throughout the system board and components. Sony was one of the first facilities that switched all their plants to lead free, so they had a head start on lead free designs. sony was sort of a pioneer on implementing lead free soldering into production."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_360_technical_problems

"The added mass of the CSP chips (including the GPU and CPU) resists heat flow that allows proper soldering of the lead-free solders underneath the motherboard. This causes cracking and voids in the solders themselves from prolonged constant temperature changes inside the console. Lead-free solders, however, might be the cause of this because, when properly soldered, they take on a dull appearance that professionals take as a cold solder joint in older methods, thus leading to confusion. Lead-free solders also require a greater amount of heat to solder properly when compared to older lead/tin solders"

Well, I thank you for the refresher on recent developments in soldering, but all it means to me is "yes, MS rushed design and/or manufacturing (insufficient training on Pb-free) and or quality control".  I don't believe there was no way to compensate for having to go Pb-free unless I see highly reputable sources saying so. 

You said nothing about my NVidia point/question. 
You said nothing regarding my request for source(s) on your NVidia failure rate allegation.
You did not respond to my suggestion about schizophrenia within MS regarding possible early reports of RRoD. 
In fact, you did not even say anything that would support your suggestion that test units used Pb solder! 

All in all, I feel I have no choice but to wonder whether your post is just a red herring.

Food for thought:
Q: In your opinion what do you think the main cause of the Red Ring of Death failures have been?

RROD is caused by anything that fails in the "digital backbone" on the mother board. Also known as a core digital error. CPU, GPU, memory, etc. Bad parts, incompatible parts (timing problems) bad manufacturing process (like solder joints), misapplied heat sinks or thermal interface material, missing parts, broken parts, parts of the wrong value, missed test coverage. Any one or more, on any chip, or many other discrete components, would cause this. And many of the failures were obviously infant mortality, where they work when they leave the factory and fail early in use. The main design flaw was the excessive heat on the GPU warping the mother board around it. This would stress the solder joints on the GPU and any bad joints would then fail in early life.

There are also other significantly high failure rates in other areas, like the DVD.
http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/digitaljoystick/archives/129866.asp

This guy knows what he's talking about; it sounds like the solder is a symptom rather than a cause, if it's even a factor at all.  I'd trust this answer more than random forum theorists.