By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - General Discussion - Capitalism: A Love Story. What do you think of it?

Kasz216 said:
stof said:
@ Onyxmeth. What exactly has been flat out wrong in his movies before? I tried asking this before and the best I got were links to critics who just disagreed with his political opinions. But having another view doesn't mean someones wrong, it means you disagree.

As for the name. I'm not sure if it's just unfortunate for the way it will make people think it has a totally different subject matter, or it it was a deliberate move to whittle those people out. Sort of a "oh, you think he's actually opposed to the entire Capital world system? you don't really get it and I'm not going to discuss it with you" kind of thing. It's probably the former.

I'll just go with a couple from Bowling from Columbine.

Bowling from Colombine

Mistake Factual error: After the shooting of Kayla Rolland at Mt. Morris, MI, just north of Flint, Michael Moore says "Just as he did after the Columbine shooting, [NRA President] Charlton Heston showed up in Flint, to have a big pro-gun rally" When in fact Heston's speech was given at a "get out the vote" rally in Flint, which was held when elections rolled by some eight months after the shooting (Feb 29 vs Oct 17) In fact, then-presidential candidate George W. Bush, then Vice-President Al Gore, civil rights leader Jesse Jackson, and Moore himself all spoke at the rally.

Mistake Continuity: The speech that Moore claims/shows then NRA president Charlton Heston giving in Colorado is actually several speeches edited into one. Note how Heston's clothing changes between cuts during this speech.

 

Here he is twice lieing... in cases where he obviously knows he's lieing.  Specifically to try and make Charlton Heston look bad. 

 

Now that is quite the damning claim. So I thought I'd check to see what Moore has to say about it. Fortunately, used to being attacked (both rightly and wrongly) Moore does a lot of fact verifying even after his films are released. And this was a claim he dealt with, including the full transcript of the speech. I'm afraid that Mr. Moore's claim isn't false. Yours is.

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/wackoattacko/

Here's his response with the video to the clip in his film. you'll notice a few things. First you'll notice that his clothes don't actually change at all. And while the speech is editied, it's merely to save time, as you can see from the full transcript provided here

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/wackoattacko/heston.php  The very last part of his video speech isn't in the transcript, but he's still wearing the same clothes, and it's the part that sounds more like a farewell than his actual speech (and isn't the hateful part at all)

The second thing you'll notice in both the video and the transcript is that the speech is undeniably in Denver and undeniably just after the tragedy. He applauds the courage of those that came, talks of the Mayor of Denver's letter telling him not to come, and the full transcript has him apologizing for the lack of festivities and says they all share the horror of what happened in Littleton.

If you want to state that Moore decided to write a ficticious speech for his fact check website, that's pretty far out there. And it still doesn't address the video in his film, which is most certainly what he claims it to be.

The notion that it was in fact multiple speeches edited together from an entirely different place is the false claim in this case, not Moore's.

 

 

Ok. Where's the next boldfaced lie, lie by omission or dishonest spin?



I'm a mod, come to me if there's mod'n to do. 

Chrizum is the best thing to happen to the internet, Period.

Serves me right for challenging his sales predictions!

Bet with dsisister44: Red Steel 2 will sell 1 million within it's first 365 days of sales.

Around the Network
stof said:
I can't wait. It'll be funny informative and passionate. Exactly what the United States needs more of.

I am sure someone could be equally factual, informative, and passionate about The Third Reich, but it wound not be what the US needs more of.

You could probably make the Nazi's look pretty fantastic, if that was your goal, and you presented the facts in the same manner Michael Moore does.



stof said:
Kasz216 said:
stof said:
@ Onyxmeth. What exactly has been flat out wrong in his movies before? I tried asking this before and the best I got were links to critics who just disagreed with his political opinions. But having another view doesn't mean someones wrong, it means you disagree.

As for the name. I'm not sure if it's just unfortunate for the way it will make people think it has a totally different subject matter, or it it was a deliberate move to whittle those people out. Sort of a "oh, you think he's actually opposed to the entire Capital world system? you don't really get it and I'm not going to discuss it with you" kind of thing. It's probably the former.

I'll just go with a couple from Bowling from Columbine.

Bowling from Colombine

Mistake Factual error: After the shooting of Kayla Rolland at Mt. Morris, MI, just north of Flint, Michael Moore says "Just as he did after the Columbine shooting, [NRA President] Charlton Heston showed up in Flint, to have a big pro-gun rally" When in fact Heston's speech was given at a "get out the vote" rally in Flint, which was held when elections rolled by some eight months after the shooting (Feb 29 vs Oct 17) In fact, then-presidential candidate George W. Bush, then Vice-President Al Gore, civil rights leader Jesse Jackson, and Moore himself all spoke at the rally.

Mistake Continuity: The speech that Moore claims/shows then NRA president Charlton Heston giving in Colorado is actually several speeches edited into one. Note how Heston's clothing changes between cuts during this speech.

 

Here he is twice lieing... in cases where he obviously knows he's lieing.  Specifically to try and make Charlton Heston look bad. 

 

Now that is quite the damning claim. So I thought I'd check to see what Moore has to say about it. Fortunately, used to being attacked (both rightly and wrongly) Moore does a lot of fact verifying even after his films are released. And this was a claim he dealt with, including the full transcript of the speech. I'm afraid that Mr. Moore's claim isn't false. Yours is.

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/wackoattacko/

Here's his response with the video to the clip in his film. you'll notice a few things. First you'll notice that his clothes don't actually change at all. And while the speech is editied, it's merely to save time, as you can see from the full transcript provided here

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/wackoattacko/heston.php  The very last part of his video speech isn't in the transcript, but he's still wearing the same clothes, and it's the part that sounds more like a farewell than his actual speech (and isn't the hateful part at all)

The second thing you'll notice in both the video and the transcript is that the speech is undeniably in Denver and undeniably just after the tragedy. He applauds the courage of those that came, talks of the Mayor of Denver's letter telling him not to come, and the full transcript has him apologizing for the lack of festivities and says they all share the horror of what happened in Littleton.

If you want to state that Moore decided to write a ficticious speech for his fact check website, that's pretty far out there. And it still doesn't address the video in his film, which is most certainly what he claims it to be.

The notion that it was in fact multiple speeches edited together from an entirely different place is the false claim in this case, not Moore's.

 

 

Ok. Where's the next boldfaced lie, lie by omission or dishonest spin?


No.  He's still actually wrong there.   You aren't reading his words... which is really odd for someone like you.

Read the spin in his "explination"

with my words, "a big pro-gun rally," every word out of Charlton Heston's mouth was uttered right there in Denver, just 10 days after the Columbine tragedy.

In otherwords.  It WASN'T a big pro gun rally.  He never depends the point it was, and instead says it was simply because that is what he said.  It wasn't a rally.  Infact they canceled all they're rallys.  These was a voters meeting they had to have... by New York law.

Also you know.  Compare what moore took vs the actual speech.

http://www.hardylaw.net/Bowlingtranscript.html

 

I mean hell he ends one cut at "I said to the mayor"  Then picks it up with a TOTALLY different line of the speech... that wasn't directed at the mayor!   Heston didn't say "I said to the Mayor this is our country, as Americans we're free to travel wherever we want in our broad land. "

That is a broad lie and the transcript actually proves it... that line was too newspapers.  So yeah.

As for the clip preceding the Denver speech, when Heston proclaims "from my cold dead hands," this appears as Heston is being introduced in narration. It is Heston's most well-recognized NRA image – hoisting the rifle overhead as he makes his proclamation, as he has done at virtually every political appearance on behalf of the NRA (before and since Columbine). I have merely re-broadcast an image supplied to us by a Denver TV station,

Once agian. Something he got from a Denver TV station. Not from that meeting... never said he got it from that meeting... but instead a TV image from something else completly.  From a speech 1 year after columbine.   Even though he cuts it as if it's directed at them... and you know.  His clothes change there.




Also by the way... right after that is the other lie. Where he says they went to a gun rally at Flint Michigan.

When in fact it was a political rally. Not a gun rally.

 

Also a rally Moore doesn't even mention in his "defense".


So yeah.  Now we're up to 3 lies about Heston in bowling from Columbine instead of 2... so no.  My claims were right on.  He lied twice about the rallies and even implies that the rally was held because the girl died even though it was a political get out the vote rally... scheudled way ahead of time... and Moore was at a rally around the same time no less.

 



Oh, and as for lie 4. He quotes an image that shows he threw that big "pro gun rally" 48 hours aftewords....

The words

"48-hours after Kayla Rolland is pronounced dead, "

What comes after that coma on that webpage?

"Bill Clinton is on The Today Show telling a sympathetic Katie Couric, "Maybe this tragic death will help."


So he you know... lied again about what that sentence said.

 

 

When did the Rally really happen... 8 months after she was pronounced dead.

Seriously, how are you buying this?



Around the Network

Back in the day, documentaries were produced to provide a balanced coverage of an issue to promote thought and discussion about it. Today documentaries have become such one sided and misleading explorations of issues that any association of documentary film makers should adopt a cherry-picking strawman as their mascot; and of all documentary film makers working today, Michael Moore is one of the worst for misleading people to promote his own agenda.

Now, the factors leading to the collapse of the world economy recently need to be exposed and blame should be spread around to all of the people involved; including government officials, CEOs of large corporations, and individuals for making stupid/greedy decisions on an unprecedented scale. But I can’t stomach watching another Michael Moore movie, and this one seems about as hypocritical as watching a movie from the president of NAMBLA who is criticizing the Catholic Church for not protecting their alter-boys from pedophiles.



Oh nvm.  If they continue to be fallacious I'll bring it up but I'll let this little illogical thing go. 



Kasz216 said:

Oh, and as for lie 4. He quotes an image that shows he threw that big "pro gun rally" 48 hours aftewords....

The words

"48-hours after Kayla Rolland is pronounced dead, "

What comes after that coma on that webpage?

"Bill Clinton is on The Today Show telling a sympathetic Katie Couric, "Maybe this tragic death will help."


So he you know... lied again about what that sentence said.

 

 

When did the Rally really happen... 8 months after she was pronounced dead.

Seriously, how are you buying this?

yeah thet seen also where he "walks out of the bank with a gun"

 

was staged as well he went in did the paper work , then came back after a waiting period wearing the same cloths to make it seem like it all happened on the same day



 

I'm interested in it... looks like a typical Moore film. No rush to see it though.



I game.  You game.  We game.

I'm a videogamer, not a fanboy, but have a special place for Nintendo.

Current Systems Owned: NSwitch/PS4/XONE/WiiU/3DS/2DS/PCGaming Rig-i7/ASUS i7 Gaming Laptop.

Previous Game Consoles:  PS3/Xbox360/Wii/DSL/Pretty much every one thats been released since the Atari 2600.

Sorry I was gone for so long. It was 추석 over here (Korean thanksgiving) and we took a smallcation to Daegu. Anyways, I'll try and focus on Kasz's assertions as soon as I get a bit more time. But in the mean time, for Mesoteto. This is Moore's responce on his website.

"That scene where you got the gun in the bank was staged!"
Well of course it was staged! It's a movie! We built the "bank" as a set and then I hired actors to play the bank tellers and the manager and we got a toy gun from the prop department and then I wrote some really cool dialogue for me and them to say! Pretty neat, huh?
Or...
In the spring of 2001, I saw a real ad in a real newspaper in Michigan announcing a real promotion that this real bank had where they would give you a gun (as your up-front interest) for opening up a Certificate of Deposit account. They promoted this in publications all over the country – "More Bang for Your Buck!"
There was news coverage of this bank giving away guns, long before I even shot the scene there. The Chicago Sun Times wrote about how the bank would "hand you a gun" with the purchase of a CD. Those are the precise words used by a bank employee in the film.
When you see me going in to the bank and walking out with my new gun in "Bowling for Columbine" – that is exactly as it happened. Nothing was done out of the ordinary other than to phone ahead and ask permission to let me bring a camera in to film me opening up my account. I walked into that bank in northern Michigan for the first time ever on that day in June 2001, and, with cameras rolling, gave the bank teller $1,000 – and opened up a 20-year CD account. After you see me filling out the required federal forms ("How do you spell Caucasian?") – which I am filling out here for the first time – the bank manager faxed it to the bank's main office for them to do the background check. The bank is a licensed federal arms dealer and thus can have guns on the premises and do the instant background checks (the ATF's Federal Firearms database—which includes all federally approved gun dealers—lists North Country Bank with Federal Firearms License #4-38-153-01-5C-39922).
Within 10 minutes, the "OK" came through from the firearms background check agency and, 5 minutes later, just as you see it in the film, they handed me a Weatherby Mark V Magnum rifle
And it is that very gun that I still own to this day. I have decided the best thing to do with this gun is to melt it down into a bust of John Ashcroft and auction it off on E-Bay (more details on that later). All the proceeds will go to The Brady Campaign To Prevent Gun Violence to fight all these lying gun nuts who have attacked my film and make it possible on a daily basis for America's gun epidemic to rage on.



I'm a mod, come to me if there's mod'n to do. 

Chrizum is the best thing to happen to the internet, Period.

Serves me right for challenging his sales predictions!

Bet with dsisister44: Red Steel 2 will sell 1 million within it's first 365 days of sales.