By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Gaming Discussion - My XBox 360 vs PS3 comparison (mostly technical)

oli2 on 17 September 2007

Don't know why i post on that topic ... but :

1) Please don't post a self called "technical comparison" while dealing on a huge part upon "gigaflops".

2) Please don't speak in such topic upon the number of "hardware threads", or "number of cores". You could have mentionned that the SPU can be summed up as "co-processors" (if you compare them to general purpose ones like PPE or one of Xbox360 's core).

3) Upon the architectural issues of UMA : yes,  Xbox was inferior to PS2 just because of that ... 

4)  You're so obviously biased i can't understand why you deny ...

 Yawn ... i 'm tired and go to sleep.



Around the Network
sieanr on 17 September 2007
Final-Fan said:
The main part I take issue with is this; The clock speeds he cites and overlooking the disadvantages to XDR (namely very high latency). Not to mention the completly out of whack implication that the 360 design is like a cheap mobo.

I thought (and Wikipedia and others agree) that it was RDRAM that had latency issues, and that XDR had solved that problem.

One of the arguments that pops up with RAM in the respective consoles is that the RSX can be just as flexible with its RAM usage as the 360, ie use all 512mb.

While the RSX can acess the XDRAM, but at a significant latency penalty. Since the crux of his argument was that the split RAM desing was superior to the 360 pooled design, I think this is a somewhat major oversight - especially given how large textures this gen are.

Another thing he overlooked was the hardware tesselator in the 360s GPU. One of the things brought up here was the supposed lack of bandwidth between the CPU and GPU in the 360s design. However, the hardware tesselator can take a lower poly model and tesselate it into a higher poly model, which saves heaps of vertex data shuffling from the CPU to the GPU. This is also relavent because you hear PS3 devs talk about using the SPUs to do geometry, yet the tesselator can do many of these things, in hardware on the Xenos.

@oli2, you win the internets. The SPUs are much more like shaders in a GPU than a seperate core. They can access memory independantly, but they must recieve all their tasks from the PPE. THe PPE could, in theory, be swamped with other work and significantly impact the performance of the SPUs. Not to mention the Cell can only run two threads.



Leo-j said: If a dvd for a pc game holds what? Crysis at 3000p or something, why in the world cant a blu-ray disc do the same?

ssj12 said: Player specific decoders are nothing more than specialized GPUs. Gran Turismo is the trust driving simulator of them all. 

"Why do they call it the xbox 360? Because when you see it, you'll turn 360 degrees and walk away" 

Final-Fan on 17 September 2007

While the RSX can acess the XDRAM, but at a significant latency penalty. Since the crux of his argument was that the split RAM desing was superior to the 360 pooled design, I think this is a somewhat major oversight - especially given how large textures this gen are.

In the OP MikeB refers to a well-known diagram of the 360's design which shows that its entire 512MB of RAM is connected to the GPU, and from there to the CPU, at 10.8 up/10.8 down. Is this not in fact the case? And if it is the case, is this not a significant disadvantage the 360's CPU faces, and in fact a greater bottleneck for the ENTIRE amount of memory than is true of HALF the amount of memory available to the RSX and Cell? It's therefore true that the 360's GPU will be able to utilize the entire amount of memory very quickly, but its CPU will not be able to utilize ANY of that memory at comparable speed.

Another thing he overlooked was the hardware tesselator in the 360s GPU. One of the things brought up here was the supposed lack of bandwidth between the CPU and GPU in the 360s design. However, the hardware tesselator can take a lower poly model and tesselate it into a higher poly model, which saves heaps of vertex data shuffling from the CPU to the GPU. This is also relavent because you hear PS3 devs talk about using the SPUs to do geometry, yet the tesselator can do many of these things, in hardware on the Xenos.

Isn't this effectively putting the CPU's workload on the GPU? This is indeed a nifty trick, but it seems to be at the expense of putting extra work on the shoulders of the Xenos, and when the time comes that the GPU will be pushed to its limit just doing its ordinary duties (as will inevitably happen a few years down the road), the crutch will be pulled away, the technique will become useless/counterproductive, and you'll be facing the same bandwidth limitation. (Supposed bandwidth limitation? Either make your counterargument or concede the point please.)



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

sieanr on 17 September 2007

Isn't this effectively putting the CPU's workload on the GPU? This is indeed a nifty trick, but it seems to be at the expense of putting extra work on the shoulders of the Xenos, and when the time comes that the GPU will be pushed to its limit just doing its ordinary duties (as will inevitably happen a few years down the road), the crutch will be pulled away, the technique will become useless/counterproductive, and you'll be facing the same bandwidth limitation. (Supposed bandwidth limitation? Either make your counterargument or concede the point please.)


I don't see whats hard to understand about this. Its an extra part of the hardware that can do one thing and one thing only. It doesn't put any extra strain on the GPU outside of using a part that would otherwise go unused.

In the OP MikeB refers to a well-known diagram of the 360's design which shows that its entire 512MB of RAM is connected to the GPU, and from there to the CPU, at 10.8 up/10.8 down. Is this not in fact the case? And if it is the case, is this not a significant disadvantage the 360's CPU faces, and in fact a greater bottleneck for the ENTIRE amount of memory than is true of HALF the amount of memory available to the RSX and Cell? It's therefore true that the 360's GPU will be able to utilize the entire amount of memory very quickly, but its CPU will not be able to utilize ANY of that memory at comparable speed.


I can post charts that slant and overstate numbers too.



EDIT; another funny pic that takes numbers out of context

Thats right, the Cell can write memory at 4gbs and read memory at a whopping 16mbs. Not a typo


Leo-j said: If a dvd for a pc game holds what? Crysis at 3000p or something, why in the world cant a blu-ray disc do the same?

ssj12 said: Player specific decoders are nothing more than specialized GPUs. Gran Turismo is the trust driving simulator of them all. 

"Why do they call it the xbox 360? Because when you see it, you'll turn 360 degrees and walk away" 

Final-Fan on 17 September 2007

I don't think MikeB's 360 chart is some fanboy creation; it's on Wikipedia. (Wikipedia is anything but an ivory tower of unsullied scholars, but it usually manages to crack down on blatant propaganda.) And your snide reply did NOTHING to actually address my question:

Is it accurate? YES OR NO. IF NO, EXPLAIN WHY. Is it misleading? You've already answered "Yes." EXPLAIN WHY.



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Around the Network
sieanr on 17 September 2007
Final-Fan said:Is it accurate? YES OR NO. IF NO, EXPLAIN WHY. Is it misleading? You've already answered "Yes." EXPLAIN WHY.

Yes, its accurate -  I think that pic is from a microsoft slide.

10gbs both ways is by no means a bottleneck. I don't feel like explaining now, so maybe someone else can pick things up. 

Both systems have their share of problems and flaws in their designs.



Leo-j said: If a dvd for a pc game holds what? Crysis at 3000p or something, why in the world cant a blu-ray disc do the same?

ssj12 said: Player specific decoders are nothing more than specialized GPUs. Gran Turismo is the trust driving simulator of them all. 

"Why do they call it the xbox 360? Because when you see it, you'll turn 360 degrees and walk away" 

redisrad on 17 September 2007

nice job



Resistance owns!!!!!111 one!

Final-Fan on 17 September 2007
sieanr said:
Final-Fan said:Is it accurate? YES OR NO. IF NO, EXPLAIN WHY. Is it misleading? You've already answered "Yes." EXPLAIN WHY.

Yes, its accurate - I think that pic is from a microsoft slide.

10gbs both ways is by no means a bottleneck. I don't feel like explaining now, so maybe someone else can pick things up.

Both systems have their share of problems and flaws in their designs.


You don't have to explain (to me, now, at least) why 10.8gbs is not a bottleneck; but you certainly do have to explain why, if it is not, 20gbs/15gbs is a bottleneck in the PS3. That just doesn't seem to make any sense at all.

Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

sieanr on 17 September 2007
Final-Fan said:
sieanr said:
Final-Fan said:Is it accurate? YES OR NO. IF NO, EXPLAIN WHY. Is it misleading? You've already answered "Yes." EXPLAIN WHY.

Yes, its accurate - I think that pic is from a microsoft slide.

10gbs both ways is by no means a bottleneck. I don't feel like explaining now, so maybe someone else can pick things up.

Both systems have their share of problems and flaws in their designs.


You don't have to explain (to me, now, at least) why 10.8gbs is not a bottleneck; but you certainly do have to explain why, if it is not, 20gbs/15gbs is a bottleneck in the PS3. That just doesn't seem to make any sense at all.

Who said the speed between the CPU and GPU was a bottleneck in the PS3?

256bit split bus in the RSX, ring connector in cell, RSX to XDRAM - those are some of the potential bottlenecks in the PS3 I was talking about.



Leo-j said: If a dvd for a pc game holds what? Crysis at 3000p or something, why in the world cant a blu-ray disc do the same?

ssj12 said: Player specific decoders are nothing more than specialized GPUs. Gran Turismo is the trust driving simulator of them all. 

"Why do they call it the xbox 360? Because when you see it, you'll turn 360 degrees and walk away" 

Final-Fan on 17 September 2007
sieanr said:
Final-Fan said:
sieanr said:
Final-Fan said:Is it accurate? YES OR NO. IF NO, EXPLAIN WHY. Is it misleading? You've already answered "Yes." EXPLAIN WHY.

Yes, its accurate - I think that pic is from a microsoft slide.

10gbs both ways is by no means a bottleneck. I don't feel like explaining now, so maybe someone else can pick things up.

Both systems have their share of problems and flaws in their designs.


You don't have to explain (to me, now, at least) why 10.8gbs is not a bottleneck; but you certainly do have to explain why, if it is not, 20gbs/15gbs is a bottleneck in the PS3. That just doesn't seem to make any sense at all.

Who said the speed between the CPU and GPU was a bottleneck in the PS3?

256bit split bus in the RSX, ring connector in cell, RSX to XDRAM - those are some of the potential bottlenecks in the PS3 I was talking about.


Xbox 360: 512 RAM-->(22.4 GB/s)-->GPU;
and 512 RAM-->(22.4 GB/s)-->GPU-->(10.8 GB/s)-->CPU
OTHER WAY
GPU-->(22.4 GB/s)-->512 RAM
CPU-->(10.8 GB/s)-->GPU-->(22.4 GB/s)-->512 RAM

PS3: 256 XDR-->(25.6 GB/s)-->Cell-->(20 GB/s)-->RSX and 256 VRAM-->(22.4 GB/s)-->RSX];
and 256 XDR-->(25.6 GB/s)-->Cell and 256 VRAM-->(22.4 GB/s)-->RSX-->(15 GB/s)-->Cell
OTHER WAY
RSX-->(15 GB/s)-->Cell-->(25.6 GB/s)-->256 XDR and RSX-->(22.4 GB/s)-->256 VRAM
Cell-->(25.6 GB/s)-->256 XDR and Cell-->(20 GB/s)-->RSX-->(22.4 GB/s)-->256 VRAM

So why is RSX to XDRAM somehow bottlenecked while the 360's CPU to RAM is not?

In addition, is not the memory achitecture much more evenly distributed to help both the CPU and GPU in the PS3 compared to the 360 as well as being faster overall (though not in every particular)?



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom!