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Factor 5: Lair sucks but, hey, it's not our fault

Forums - Sony Discussion - Factor 5: Lair sucks but, hey, it's not our fault

It is a (very) well known problem in software development that as the scale of a project increases it becomes disproportionately more difficult to manage the project to a successful outcome. As more and more gaming projects reach 100+ person development teams and $20 Million to $40 Million budgets you will see more and more previously good/great developers produce crappy games because they simply can not handle the scale of the project.

I'm not trying to bash these developers but you have to realize that it is a completely different to manage a team of 15 developers to product a N64/Nintendo DS game over 12 months than it is to manage a team of 100+ developers for 2+ years to produce an Epic PS3/XBox 360 game. These large projects will (likely) be broken down into multiple teams (8 to 10, 10 to 15 man teams) each with its own manager, with many of these managers reporting to an art lead or to the project manager, and any problems in management will result in a lower quality product.



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So with that info in mind(Provided by HappySqurriel)how the hell do we keep dev costs down so we dont see devs go the way of SEGA and produce crappy game after crappy game?Well unless we put all our hope in 1st party lineups its hard because FinalFantasy a title that is great every time its released is only released every 2 years maybe 3, same for GTA,MGS,Halo,DragonQuest,Zelda and Metroid(The great franchise)do we just have to wait longer for good/great/epic games and play crappy ones inbetween well thats not good for anyone really.This is why the Wii is good but if it had started of a little slower i.e sold about 5-7million by now then we wouldnt have the mini game compilations and crap ports and so on that are plagueing the Wii at the moment same with the DS if these consoles could have started off just a little slower then gaming dev costs would be down and there would be more worthy of note franchise on these systems(which the DS is slowly fixing)that arent 1stparty.



End of 2014 Hardware Predictions (03/03/14)

PlayStation 4: 12-15million

Xbox One: 7-10 million

Wii U: 8-9 million (Changed 01/04/2014 from 7-9 --> 8-9 million)

mitsuhide said:
So with that info in mind(Provided by HappySqurriel)how the hell do we keep dev costs down so we dont see devs go the way of SEGA and produce crappy game after crappy game?Well unless we put all our hope in 1st party lineups its hard because FinalFantasy a title that is great every time its released is only released every 2 years maybe 3, same for GTA,MGS,Halo,DragonQuest,Zelda and Metroid(The great franchise)do we just have to wait longer for good/great/epic games and play crappy ones inbetween well thats not good for anyone really.This is why the Wii is good but if it had started of a little slower i.e sold about 5-7million by now then we wouldnt have the mini game compilations and crap ports and so on that are plagueing the Wii at the moment same with the DS if these consoles could have started off just a little slower then gaming dev costs would be down and there would be more worthy of note franchise on these systems(which the DS is slowly fixing)that arent 1stparty.

There's an easy way to keep devs costs down and it's already happening:

Nintendo wins every market.

With the mindset change that is going to need to happen in generation eight, we'll end up seeing less powerful, cheaper machines that will be easy to program for.




Or check out my new webcomic: http://selfcentent.com/

you guys do know Hus wasnt defending the game, but was merely saying that the destructoid article was crap and cut up and that you should look for the original interview.. really no need to flame the poor guy..




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rocketpig said:
mitsuhide said:
So with that info in mind(Provided by HappySqurriel)how the hell do we keep dev costs down so we dont see devs go the way of SEGA and produce crappy game after crappy game?Well unless we put all our hope in 1st party lineups its hard because FinalFantasy a title that is great every time its released is only released every 2 years maybe 3, same for GTA,MGS,Halo,DragonQuest,Zelda and Metroid(The great franchise)do we just have to wait longer for good/great/epic games and play crappy ones inbetween well thats not good for anyone really.This is why the Wii is good but if it had started of a little slower i.e sold about 5-7million by now then we wouldnt have the mini game compilations and crap ports and so on that are plagueing the Wii at the moment same with the DS if these consoles could have started off just a little slower then gaming dev costs would be down and there would be more worthy of note franchise on these systems(which the DS is slowly fixing)that arent 1stparty.

There's an easy way to keep devs costs down and it's already happening:

Nintendo wins every market.

With the mindset change that is going to need to happen in generation eight, we'll end up seeing less powerful, cheaper machines that will be easy to program for.


I hope not.  And if cost is the major reason for going casual, I'd just as soon buy fewer games that I actually liked.

I'd rather just buy  MGS4 and the newest FF game than 8 or 10 wii games



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mitsuhide said:
So with that info in mind(Provided by HappySqurriel)how the hell do we keep dev costs down so we dont see devs go the way of SEGA and produce crappy game after crappy game?Well unless we put all our hope in 1st party lineups its hard because FinalFantasy a title that is great every time its released is only released every 2 years maybe 3, same for GTA,MGS,Halo,DragonQuest,Zelda and Metroid(The great franchise)do we just have to wait longer for good/great/epic games and play crappy ones inbetween well thats not good for anyone really.This is why the Wii is good but if it had started of a little slower i.e sold about 5-7million by now then we wouldnt have the mini game compilations and crap ports and so on that are plagueing the Wii at the moment same with the DS if these consoles could have started off just a little slower then gaming dev costs would be down and there would be more worthy of note franchise on these systems(which the DS is slowly fixing)that arent 1stparty.

I personally expect that a new form of middleware will be produced which is (essentially) libraries of graphical assets and procedural content generation ...

In the (near) future some one will start to produce a large library of graphical assets (like tables, chairs, wallpaper, etc.) and licence it to developers (potentially with a working game engine) for $1 Million or more per game; in theory this should drastically reduce the number of artists you need to produce a particular game although would result in a much more generic art style.

Right now there is nothing like this on the market so it will take a couple of years to develop and then a couple of years to become commonly used so in the immediate future most developers will have to either 'suck it up' or choose less expensive platforms to develop for.



dallas said:
rocketpig said:

There's an easy way to keep devs costs down and it's already happening:

Nintendo wins every market.

With the mindset change that is going to need to happen in generation eight, we'll end up seeing less powerful, cheaper machines that will be easy to program for.


I hope not.  And if cost is the major reason for going casual, I'd just as soon buy fewer games that I actually liked.


I think you're misunderstanding my point. I don't expect Sony and MS to go Nintendo-style casual with their next machines but they will think harder about development and hardware costs before attempting to release an uber-machine that costs them $200 more to make than what they can sell it for.

That will result in less powerful machines that cost less to develop for, not necessarily another system full of party/casual games.




Or check out my new webcomic: http://selfcentent.com/

dallas said:
rocketpig said:
mitsuhide said:
So with that info in mind(Provided by HappySqurriel)how the hell do we keep dev costs down so we dont see devs go the way of SEGA and produce crappy game after crappy game?Well unless we put all our hope in 1st party lineups its hard because FinalFantasy a title that is great every time its released is only released every 2 years maybe 3, same for GTA,MGS,Halo,DragonQuest,Zelda and Metroid(The great franchise)do we just have to wait longer for good/great/epic games and play crappy ones inbetween well thats not good for anyone really.This is why the Wii is good but if it had started of a little slower i.e sold about 5-7million by now then we wouldnt have the mini game compilations and crap ports and so on that are plagueing the Wii at the moment same with the DS if these consoles could have started off just a little slower then gaming dev costs would be down and there would be more worthy of note franchise on these systems(which the DS is slowly fixing)that arent 1stparty.

There's an easy way to keep devs costs down and it's already happening:

Nintendo wins every market.

With the mindset change that is going to need to happen in generation eight, we'll end up seeing less powerful, cheaper machines that will be easy to program for.


I hope not. And if cost is the major reason for going casual, I'd just as soon buy fewer games that I actually liked.

I'd rather just buy MGS4 and the newest FF game than 8 or 10 wii games


He never said casual. He said easier to produce.



iclim4 said:
you guys do know Hus wasnt defending the game, but was merely saying that the destructoid article was crap and cut up and that you should look for the original interview.. really no need to flame the poor guy..

If he would just start being cool with people and actually tried to get along then he wouldn't be flamed. 



rocketpig said:
dallas said:
rocketpig said:

There's an easy way to keep devs costs down and it's already happening:

Nintendo wins every market.

With the mindset change that is going to need to happen in generation eight, we'll end up seeing less powerful, cheaper machines that will be easy to program for.


I hope not.  And if cost is the major reason for going casual, I'd just as soon buy fewer games that I actually liked.


I think you're misunderstanding my point. I don't expect Sony and MS to go Nintendo-style casual with their next machines but they will think harder about development and hardware costs before attempting to release an uber-machine that costs them $200 more to make than what they can sell it for.

That will result in less powerful machines that cost less to develop for, not necessarily another system full of party/casual games.


Well, hindsight is 20/20 huh?