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Discussion: Terrorism, Israel, Hamas, etc

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I love how both of you are avoiding the main point, which is that Israel wouldn't even exist unless the Western World hadn't decided to pack Palestine with Jews, and the force the populace to accept them and even have them establish a Jewish governing body.



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

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I love how you like to ignore the point that the western powers did nothing. While the British were still in control of the mandate, they actually actively opposed and prevented Jewish immigration.

All that the west really did was abandon the mandate, and let the Jews and Arabs fight it out.

Originally, the entire world thought that the Jews were screwed. They offered no help, despite the fact they thought that they stood no chance against the Arab armies.

Everyone was shocked when the smoke cleared and the Jews were whipping the Arabs like a red-headed step child.

Then, the UN stepped in a demanded that Israel halt her war against the Arabs. When the Jews looked like they were doomed, they were silent.

So, seriously, if you want to get historical again, you are just showing that you really don't know your middle east history very well. Because the scenario in your head of Jews & the West VS the Arab world is a fantasy. It didn't happen that way. The Jews shocked both the Arabs and the West, and they only stepped in to stop the conflict when they realized that the Jews were winning.

I actually have a history book from 1951 that goes deeply into this subject, and how the Dulles brothers actually pushed for the creation of the state of Israel because they believed that the Arabs would deal a final blow to them and finally destroy any hope for a future Jewish state (if you know history at all, you'll know that the brothers were ardent anti-Semites who despised Jews).

The Dulles brothers received a lot of kick downs from the oil producing Arab states, and they didn't want the Zionists coming in and messing up their relationship with the Arabs. Oops, looks like the Western world's plan of a real final solution to the "Jewish problem" didn't work out as planned.



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vlad321 said:
Comrade Tovya said:
Slimebeast said:
vlad321

FYI The West Bank is occupied by Israel for the exact those reasons - security for it's citizens.

Gaza was a test ground. Ariel Sharon thought it was good to give the Palestinians a chance to show they can be peaceful. But you know what, they failed. And the opposition party in Israel, with leader Benyamin Netanyahu, is about to win the election that is in a couple of weeks - and Netanyahu has always been against Israel leaving Gaza.

 

You are right that Gaza was supposed to be a testing ground (that obviously proved to be a failed strategy) but Bibi Netanyahu was against leaving Gaza only in the beginning. Bibi changed his mind later and agreed to do it (he actually voted "yes" on the withdrawl measure presented to the cabinet). Bibi isn't a saint in this thing.

But your first comment does bring up a valid point.

Why is it that everyone keeps telling the Jews to take the step towards peace, and when they do (and the Arabs attack anyway) that the Jews always get blamed? I mean seriously, when does the world finally take a step back and say, "wow, the Jews keep giving, and the Arabs keep the same 'drive the Jews into the sea' mantra up anyway?"

It seems to me, that any logical human being would understand that for peace amongst any two parties to exist, both parties have to give a little here and there to gain each other's trust. The Jews backed out of Gaza, but still keeping a close eye on it just to play it safe, and Hamas went on a rocket barrage in thanks for their sacrifice. When do the world finally say, enough is enough? Palestinians, either agree that the Jews have a right to exist, or just forget getting your own country. It's actually a pretty simple bit of logic.

 

And you are forgetting that there will ALWAYS be people that want more and never be satisfied and resort to violence. You putting that small minority and labeling it as all Arabs just goes to show me how well propaganda can affect people.

That small minority is the elected government...

that was elected in... in a fair government....

and was firing rockets while elected.

Palestine knew exactly who Hamas was.

Had Bush said "Hey we're going to torture a bunch of a-rabs!"

and we voted them in sure... fine.  If america TROOPS die because of that do to terrorist attacks.  Whatever... i'm actually cool with that... and if those Troops used civilians as human shields and we lose those people too...

I'm cool with that too.

I mad at the troops who did it.  Not the people who attacked us.



Comrade Tovya said:
I love how you like to ignore the point that the western powers did nothing. While the British were still in control of the mandate, they actually actively opposed and prevented Jewish immigration.

All that the west really did was abandon the mandate, and let the Jews and Arabs fight it out.

Originally, the entire world thought that the Jews were screwed. They offered no help, despite the fact they thought that they stood no chance against the Arab armies.

Everyone was shocked when the smoke cleared and the Jews were whipping the Arabs like a red-headed step child.

Then, the UN stepped in a demanded that Israel halt her war against the Arabs. When the Jews looked like they were doomed, they were silent.

So, seriously, if you want to get historical again, you are just showing that you really don't know your middle east history very well. Because the scenario in your head of Jews & the West VS the Arab world is a fantasy. It didn't happen that way. The Jews shocked both the Arabs and the West, and they only stepped in to stop the conflict when they realized that the Jews were winning.

I actually have a history book from 1951 that goes deeply into this subject, and how the Dulles brothers actually pushed for the creation of the state of Israel because they believed that the Arabs would deal a final blow to them and finally destroy any hope for a future Jewish state (if you know history at all, you'll know that the brothers were ardent anti-Semites who despised Jews).

The Dulles brothers received a lot of kick downs from the oil producing Arab states, and they didn't want the Zionists coming in and messing up their relationship with the Arabs. Oops, looks like the Western world's plan of a real final solution to the "Jewish problem" didn't work out as planned.

 

So how is not forcing the jewish population into Palestine NOT western involvement? How is it not involvement when they were required to allow a jewish governing body within their own country, again by the west?



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

HD vs Wii, PC vs HD: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=93374

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Kasz216 said:
vlad321 said:
Comrade Tovya said:
Slimebeast said:
vlad321

FYI The West Bank is occupied by Israel for the exact those reasons - security for it's citizens.

Gaza was a test ground. Ariel Sharon thought it was good to give the Palestinians a chance to show they can be peaceful. But you know what, they failed. And the opposition party in Israel, with leader Benyamin Netanyahu, is about to win the election that is in a couple of weeks - and Netanyahu has always been against Israel leaving Gaza.

 

You are right that Gaza was supposed to be a testing ground (that obviously proved to be a failed strategy) but Bibi Netanyahu was against leaving Gaza only in the beginning. Bibi changed his mind later and agreed to do it (he actually voted "yes" on the withdrawl measure presented to the cabinet). Bibi isn't a saint in this thing.

But your first comment does bring up a valid point.

Why is it that everyone keeps telling the Jews to take the step towards peace, and when they do (and the Arabs attack anyway) that the Jews always get blamed? I mean seriously, when does the world finally take a step back and say, "wow, the Jews keep giving, and the Arabs keep the same 'drive the Jews into the sea' mantra up anyway?"

It seems to me, that any logical human being would understand that for peace amongst any two parties to exist, both parties have to give a little here and there to gain each other's trust. The Jews backed out of Gaza, but still keeping a close eye on it just to play it safe, and Hamas went on a rocket barrage in thanks for their sacrifice. When do the world finally say, enough is enough? Palestinians, either agree that the Jews have a right to exist, or just forget getting your own country. It's actually a pretty simple bit of logic.

 

And you are forgetting that there will ALWAYS be people that want more and never be satisfied and resort to violence. You putting that small minority and labeling it as all Arabs just goes to show me how well propaganda can affect people.

That small minority is the elected government...

that was elected in... in a fair government....

and was firing rockets while elected.

Palestine new exactly who Hamas was.

 

 

Exactly.  The majority of Palestinians elected a Hamas organization that ran on the platform of killing every last Jew, and making a Palestine from "the river to the sea".  So all the talk about Israel just needs to "give a little bit more".  The argument is fruitless.  The Palestinians are very vocal in their demands.... "Give us all of Israel, or you shall all die"

Once again to all the anti-Zionists, this is not my opinion... this is the verbal declaration of the Palestinians.  So don't be angry with me... be angry with them.



MarioKart:

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Comrade Tovya said:Exactly.  The majority of Palestinians elected a Hamas organization that ran on the platform of killing every last Jew, and making a Palestine from "the river to the sea". 

Actually, a plurality of Palestinians voted for Hamas. No party received over 50% of the vote.



^^^ Jackson, honestly, God love you, but please stop nitpicking every word I write... It's very annoying. I've been respecting you equally, and have not been picking apart everything you write (and yes, sometimes it's very hard). But I've given you the basic respect of not criticizing every little word you write. I've been sticking to your main points. If you want me to start again, I'm game, I promise you...

Anyway, you know good and well what I meant.. more Arabs voted for Chamas than Fateh (not that it makes that big of a difference, because Fateh is nearly as bad as Chamas).

The point I have been trying to make is this:

Chamas ran on the platform of the annihilation of Israel, and the Palestinians liked this platform and voted them into power. Hence, the talk that Chamas doesn't represent the will of the people (which many posters in this forum imply) simply isn't true.

The assertion that although Chamas wants war, the Palestinian majority do not is simply not founded... the election of Chamas and independent polls show that this is simply illogical.



MarioKart:

Wii Code:

2278-0348-4368

1697-4391-7093-9431

XBOX LIVE: Comrade Tovya 2
PSN ID:

Comrade_Tovya

Glad I haven't gotten drug into this. The argument usually never goes anywhere.



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

I think God himself would have to bring fiery destruction upon the Arabs for them to get a clue.
The last two Arab / Israeli wars were disastrous for the Arabs. The Jews aren't leaving Israel, and the Arabs can't make them. All the Arabs can do is encourage the Jews to kill more Arabs.



Yet, today, America's leaders are reenacting every folly that brought these great powers [Russia, Germany, and Japan] to ruin -- from arrogance and hubris, to assertions of global hegemony, to imperial overstretch, to trumpeting new 'crusades,' to handing out war guarantees to regions and countries where Americans have never fought before. We are piling up the kind of commitments that produced the greatest disasters of the twentieth century.
 — Pat Buchanan – A Republic, Not an Empire

Another interesting piece of news on Israel's "aim to lower civilian casualties"

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/15/gaza.aid.plea/index.html?iref=topnews



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

HD vs Wii, PC vs HD: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=93374

Why Regenerating Health is a crap game mechanic: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3986420

gamrReview's broken review scores: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4170835