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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - MS: 1st party Xbox games will be cross-gen for "next year, two years"

Conina said:
goopy20 said:

I played Gears 5 on ultra settings on pc and to me it's hard to notice the difference between the base Xone version. Besides the resolution and fps, of course, and there are some extra reflections here and there.

Can you tell us your PC specs? And do you have the Xbox One S or X?

Sure, I got a Acer Predator with a GTX1060 and i5 8400. It's not exactly a beast of a rig but I haven't run into any game so far, I can't play at max settings. Native 4k not so much, but 1440p runs pretty good so far.



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goopy20 said:

Nobody is arguing that pc will always be superior for those willing to buy the latest hardware.

Good. Because as long as Consoles use PC hardware, Consoles will always come up short against the PC.

goopy20 said:

However, high-end gaming is a very niche market and that's exactly what MS isn't targeting. They want to reach the people who can't afford to upgrade to next gen, let alone buy a $2000 gaming rig. 

RTX 2000 series will be outdated and replaced by something newer, AMD will have it's own GPU's with Ray-Tracing cores as well BEFORE next-gen launches.
Nor are you required to spend $2,000 on a gaming rig, that is hyperbole.

Also an RTX 2060 is not high-end.

goopy20 said:

Fact is that only 5% of the Steam gamers currently have a RTX gpu, capable of Ray Tracing

All GPU's are actually capable of Ray Tracing by the way.
Consider yourself a little more educated today: https://www.theverge.com/2019/4/11/18305084/nvidia-driver-ray-tracing-gtx-gpu-graphics-card

goopy20 said:

and I'm sure that not many have a 1TB SSD and a pci4.0 mobo either.  

And what does the size of the SSD matter? Again, I have already touched upon why this is irrelevant, so I would rather tell you to go re-read that (as it's clear you haven't) rather than repeat myself.

Not to mention you don't know how large the next gen consoles SSD's will be anyway, they might only be 256GB!

And you do know PCI-E 3.0 SSD's can be faster than PCI-E 4.0 SSD's? It's not all about the PCI-E interface, any tech head would understand this.

goopy20 said:

Obviously, the hardware in mainstream pc's is constantly changing and when Nvidia/ AMD launch their new gpu's, I'm sure the RTX2*** will be a lot more affordable. Like I said, the 1 or 2 years of cross gen games is probably not set in stone. I'm guessing MS is going to wait it out till 2080RTX like performance becomes mainstream, which is when they hit a price range of around $300. Who knows how long that will take. But it could be years depending on the launch prices of Nvidia/ AMD's new gpu's.

Allot of hypotheticals being thrown around here.

goopy20 said:

Star Citizen is the only "game" that does recommend SSD, but it's still not a requirement. IMO it does give an indication of the kind of scale and complexity we can expect from next gen games. Especially when we have AAA developers making an actual game with the tech, instead of whatever the hell they're doing with Star Citizen.

Of course it's not a requirement, no PC game will require an SSD, PC will always have faster load times too.
And PC has storage that is faster than SSD's.

Clearly you don't care for StarCitizen or "whatever the hell they are doing with it" - So it would probably be wise if you didn't add your own personal commentary if you haven't looked into what it's doing and why it's a feat of engineering.

goopy20 said:

I have to say I'm disappointed when you say: "And the next-gen consoles aren't even out yet, nor will games utilize the console hardware completely in the first year or two anyway." That sounds like Sales2099 talk. Some say Gears 5 is the best looking game of the current gen, but I disagree. There are plenty of games that look better imo, including a ps4 launch title called the Order 1886: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3svoHmxMsoU

PC always has the best looking games.
The Order 1886 isn't using the Playstation 4 hardware to it's fullest capabilities either.

Gears 5 has some interesting technical aspects, but I wouldn't assert it's the best looking console title either.

goopy20 said:

Say what you want about games like the Order 1886, Shadowfall, Infamous and Driveclub, but they did showcase what the ps4 was capable of and it got people excited for the next gen. I'm just hoping Sony doesn't forget to put some decent game play in their launch titles this time around, but I'm optimistic that they've learned their lesson. 

They aren't all that "amazing" from a graphics front. You will need to do more to impress a PC gamer with graphics I am afraid. Nor are they as technically impressive as titles coming out now or soon.



Last edited by Pemalite - on 14 February 2020

--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

How was The Order a PS4 launch title? It came out in 2015. Do you think games that launch over a year after the console is out, are launch titles? If so it makes your issues with cross gen XSX games all the more bizarre because then they’d all just be launch games 😆



Pemalite said:
goopy20 said:

Nobody is arguing that pc will always be superior for those willing to buy the latest hardware.

Good. Because as long as Consoles use PC hardware, Consoles will always come up short against the PC.

goopy20 said:

However, high-end gaming is a very niche market and that's exactly what MS isn't targeting. They want to reach the people who can't afford to upgrade to next gen, let alone buy a $2000 gaming rig. 

RTX 2000 series will be outdated and replaced by something newer, AMD will have it's own GPU's with Ray-Tracing cores as well BEFORE next-gen launches.
Nor are you required to spend $2,000 on a gaming rig, that is hyperbole.

Also an RTX 2060 is not high-end.

goopy20 said:

Fact is that only 5% of the Steam gamers currently have a RTX gpu, capable of Ray Tracing

All GPU's are actually capable of Ray Tracing by the way.
Consider yourself a little more educated today: https://www.theverge.com/2019/4/11/18305084/nvidia-driver-ray-tracing-gtx-gpu-graphics-card

goopy20 said:

and I'm sure that not many have a 1TB SSD and a pci4.0 mobo either.  

And what does the size of the SSD matter? Again, I have already touched upon why this is irrelevant, so I would rather tell you to go re-read that (as it's clear you haven't) rather than repeat myself.

Not to mention you don't know how large the next gen consoles SSD's will be anyway, they might only be 256GB!

And you do know PCI-E 3.0 SSD's can be faster than PCI-E 4.0 SSD's? It's not all about the PCI-E interface, any tech head would understand this.

goopy20 said:

Obviously, the hardware in mainstream pc's is constantly changing and when Nvidia/ AMD launch their new gpu's, I'm sure the RTX2*** will be a lot more affordable. Like I said, the 1 or 2 years of cross gen games is probably not set in stone. I'm guessing MS is going to wait it out till 2080RTX like performance becomes mainstream, which is when they hit a price range of around $300. Who knows how long that will take. But it could be years depending on the launch prices of Nvidia/ AMD's new gpu's.

Allot of hypotheticals being thrown around here.

goopy20 said:

Star Citizen is the only "game" that does recommend SSD, but it's still not a requirement. IMO it does give an indication of the kind of scale and complexity we can expect from next gen games. Especially when we have AAA developers making an actual game with the tech, instead of whatever the hell they're doing with Star Citizen.

Of course it's not a requirement, no PC game will require an SSD, PC will always have faster load times too.
And PC has storage that is faster than SSD's.

Clearly you don't care for StarCitizen or "whatever the hell they are doing with it" - So it would probably be wise if you didn't add your own personal commentary if you haven't looked into what it's doing and why it's a feat of engineering.

goopy20 said:

I have to say I'm disappointed when you say: "And the next-gen consoles aren't even out yet, nor will games utilize the console hardware completely in the first year or two anyway." That sounds like Sales2099 talk. Some say Gears 5 is the best looking game of the current gen, but I disagree. There are plenty of games that look better imo, including a ps4 launch title called the Order 1886: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3svoHmxMsoU

PC always has the best looking games.
The Order 1886 isn't using the Playstation 4 hardware to it's fullest capabilities either.

Gears 5 has some interesting technical aspects, but I wouldn't assert it's the best looking console title either.

goopy20 said:

Say what you want about games like the Order 1886, Shadowfall, Infamous and Driveclub, but they did showcase what the ps4 was capable of and it got people excited for the next gen. I'm just hoping Sony doesn't forget to put some decent game play in their launch titles this time around, but I'm optimistic that they've learned their lesson. 

They aren't all that "amazing" from a graphics front. You will need to do more to impress a PC gamer with graphics I am afraid. Nor are they as technically impressive as titles coming out now or soon.



I get it. You're a pc guy who probably has a beastly rig. I also game on pc and it's great. But I think you're forgetting that not everybody plays pc games on a Nasa supercomputer, nor are developers targeting those kind pc's as the base spec. The AAA multiplatform games are, and always will be, designed with the base consoles in mind. I mean the time when developers like Valve, Crytek and Blizzard were pure pc developers, pushing the latest hardware, has long been behind us. And except for some RTS games, there are hardly any mass market pc games that can't be played on consoles. And yes, if you have a high-end pc you can play those games at 144fps, 8k and higher graphics settings, but at it's core it's still the exact same game. Same thing with the ps4 pro and X1X enhanced versions.  

You say it's impossible for a pc gamer to be impressed by console graphics, but just name me 1 AAA pc exclusive, which really is a huge leap over games like RDR2, Gow, LOU2 etc.? I haven't seen it because all major developers are currently developing their games around the base ps4/Xone and that's only going to change when the next gen starts. Then we will finally see games that are designed from the ground up around things like Ray Tracing, SSD and (current) high-end gpu/cpu's. It's why a new console gen usually means the average pc gamer will feel the need to upgrade. At least if they want to play those games at similar graphics settings at the base console versions.



goopy20 said:

The AAA multiplatform games are, and always will be, designed with the base consoles in mind. I mean the time when developers like Valve, Crytek and Blizzard were pure pc developers, pushing the latest hardware, has long been behind us. And except for some RTS games, there are hardly any mass market pc games that can't be played on consoles. And yes, if you have a high-end pc you can play those games at 144fps, 8k and higher graphics settings, but at it's core it's still the exact same game. Same thing with the ps4 pro and X1X enhanced versions.  

It may be the same game, but on beefier hardware it looks sooo much better and plays smoother than on the base console.

All game engines nowadays are scalable and better hardware takes good use of the extra performance, often even automatic (dynamic effects and dynamic resolutions and variable refresh rate).

The days of pushing the latest hardware (also on consoles) may be over, but so is "programming close to the metal" with only one set of fixed hardware specs in mind. For multiplatform games that has been a given in the last decade, but even console exclusives now have to be scalable and have to take good use of the extra performance (PS4 Pro mode, Xbox Enhanced mode, Switch docked mode). 

Of course Uncharted 1 - 3 are supposed to look a lot better on a PS4 than on a PS3 with higher framerates or at least more stable fps + frametimes without slowdowns.

Of course Uncharted 4 + Lost Legacy are supposed to look a lot better on a PS4 Pro than on a PS4 Slim with higher framerates or at least more stable fps + frametimes without slowdowns.

Of course Horizon: Zero Dawn + Marvel's Spider-Man are supposed to look a lot better on a PS4 Pro than on a PS4 Slim with higher framerates or at least more stable fps + frametimes without slowdowns.

And I would be disappointed if those games don't profit from the extra performance of a PS5.

Of course Forza Horizon 3 + 4 are supposed to look a lot better on an Xbox One X than on an Xbox One S with higher framerates or at least more stable fps + frametimes without slowdowns... and even better on good PCs.

Of course Gears of War 4 + 5 are supposed to look a lot better on an Xbox One X than on an Xbox One S with higher framerates or at least more stable fps + frametimes without slowdowns... and even better on good PCs.

And I would be disappointed if those games don't profit from the extra performance of a Xbox Series X.

Of course docked Switch games are supposed to look a lot better than undocked Switch games or the Wii U versions with higher framerates or at least more stable fps + frametimes without slowdowns.

And I would be disappointed if those games don't profit from the extra performance of a Switch Pro / Switch 2 in a few years.

Or look at the huge scalability and improvements of Bayonetta 1 (PC > Xbox One X > PS4 Pro > PS4 > Xbox One S > Switch docked > Switch undocked > Wii U > Xbox 360 > PS3).

Or look at the huge scalability and improvements of Red Dead Redemption (Xbox One X >>> Xbox One S > Xbox 360 > PS3).

Or look at the huge visual improvements of Quake 2 RTX compared to the original Quake 2.

Or look at the huge visual improvements of Minecraft RTX compared to the original Minecraft and the mobile versions.

All game engines are highly scalable nowadays and that won't change.



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LudicrousSpeed said:
How was The Order a PS4 launch title? It came out in 2015. Do you think games that launch over a year after the console is out, are launch titles? If so it makes your issues with cross gen XSX games all the more bizarre because then they’d all just be launch games 😆

My bad, I could have sworn that was a launch title :) In any case, my problem with the whole cross-gen thing isn't so much with it being 1 or 2 years. My problem is the whole vision behind it and how MS is going into the next gen. They've flat out told us that they aren't trying to compete in the traditional console race anymore as they're aiming for bigger goals (reaching 8 billion players who don't buy consoles). If you're more exited about streaming their games on your mobile and MS giving gamers options to play their games on 10-year-old hardware too, instead of getting a true next gen Halo or Gears on the Series X, then that's fine. I'm just saying that we've seen this lack of commitment towards core gamers for two console cycles now, and it didn't exactly work out for MS, nor their Xbox fan base. Just read this interview with former EA-CEO and tell me it doesn't sound familiar... 

Sony "Nailed It" With PS4 and Deserves "Victory" Over Xbox One, Ex-EA CEO Says

"There was a clash of ideas that really separated Sony and Microsoft," Riccitiello said, as reported by GamesBeat. "[The Xbox One and PS4] actually had very similar architecture that they were trying to bring to the table. But Microsoft focused … a lot on entertainment beyond gaming. Microsoft was trying to compete against Apple. They didn't feel gaming was big enough to justify the pent-up desire … to have the recognition they wanted as an innovator."

Riccitiello added that Sony, meanwhile, took a "gamer-first" approach with the PS4--something he says paid off. Microsoft's attempt to reach a broader market with its Xbox One TV integration was not necessarily an ill-advised move, but Riccitiello said Microsoft's "unfocused execution" was its downfall. He used a billiards analogy to sum up the differences, in his mind, between Microsoft and Sony. "Sony just said, 'We've made the best f**king game system we could' … partly because they didn't have the resources to do more about it," Riccitiello said.

Microsoft was focused on the shot after the one they needed to make, putting the 7-ball in the corner pocket, but they missed the first shot and didn't get another shot after it." "Sony focused on the shot they needed to make, which was win the hearts and minds of the gamer. The broader scope of entertainment might be a bigger idea, but not with an unfocused execution," he added. "A tight execution on the 50 million people that matter, which are the people currently lapping up consoles … Sony f**king nailed it, and they deserve the victory.



goopy20 said:

If you're more exited about streaming their games on your mobile and MS giving gamers options to play their games on 10-year-old hardware too, instead of getting a true next gen Halo or Gears on the Series X, then that's fine. I'm just saying that we've seen this lack of commitment towards core gamers for two console cycles now, and it didn't exactly work out for MS, nor their Xbox fan base. 

Aren't you also angry that Sony released God of War 2 on PS2 in 2007 instead of giving us a true next gen God of War 2 on PS3?

Aren't you also angry that Sony released The Last of Us on PS3 in 2013 instead of giving us a true next gen The Last of Us on PS4?

Aren't you also angry that Sony releases The Last of Us 2 on PS4 in 2020 instead of giving us a true next gen The Last of Us 2 on PS5?

Aren't you angry about this lack of commitment towards core gamers for three console cycles now?



Conina said:
goopy20 said:

The AAA multiplatform games are, and always will be, designed with the base consoles in mind. I mean the time when developers like Valve, Crytek and Blizzard were pure pc developers, pushing the latest hardware, has long been behind us. And except for some RTS games, there are hardly any mass market pc games that can't be played on consoles. And yes, if you have a high-end pc you can play those games at 144fps, 8k and higher graphics settings, but at it's core it's still the exact same game. Same thing with the ps4 pro and X1X enhanced versions.  

It may be the same game, but on beefier hardware it looks sooo much better and plays smoother than on the base console.

All game engines nowadays are scalable and better hardware takes good use of the extra performance, often even automatic (dynamic effects and dynamic resolutions and variable refresh rate).

The days of pushing the latest hardware (also on consoles) may be over, but so is "programming close to the metal" with only one set of fixed hardware specs in mind. For multiplatform games that has been a given in the last decade, but even console exclusives now have to be scalable and have to take good use of the extra performance (PS4 Pro mode, Xbox Enhanced mode, Switch docked mode). 

Of course Uncharted 1 - 3 are supposed to look a lot better on a PS4 than on a PS3 with higher framerates or at least more stable fps + frametimes without slowdowns.

Of course Uncharted 4 + Lost Legacy are supposed to look a lot better on a PS4 Pro than on a PS4 Slim with higher framerates or at least more stable fps + frametimes without slowdowns.

Of course Horizon: Zero Dawn + Marvel's Spider-Man are supposed to look a lot better on a PS4 Pro than on a PS4 Slim with higher framerates or at least more stable fps + frametimes without slowdowns.

And I would be disappointed if those games don't profit from the extra performance of a PS5.

Of course Forza Horizon 3 + 4 are supposed to look a lot better on an Xbox One X than on an Xbox One S with higher framerates or at least more stable fps + frametimes without slowdowns... and even better on good PCs.

Of course Gears of War 4 + 5 are supposed to look a lot better on an Xbox One X than on an Xbox One S with higher framerates or at least more stable fps + frametimes without slowdowns... and even better on good PCs.

And I would be disappointed if those games don't profit from the extra performance of a Xbox Series X.

Of course docked Switch games are supposed to look a lot better than undocked Switch games or the Wii U versions with higher framerates or at least more stable fps + frametimes without slowdowns.

And I would be disappointed if those games don't profit from the extra performance of a Switch Pro / Switch 2 in a few years.

Or look at the huge scalability and improvements of Bayonetta 1 (PC > Xbox One X > PS4 Pro > PS4 > Xbox One S > Switch docked > Switch undocked > Wii U > Xbox 360 > PS3).

Or look at the huge scalability and improvements of Red Dead Redemption (Xbox One X >>> Xbox One S > Xbox 360 > PS3).

Or look at the huge visual improvements of Quake 2 RTX compared to the original Quake 2.

Or look at the huge visual improvements of Minecraft RTX compared to the original Minecraft and the mobile versions.

All game engines are highly scalable nowadays and that won't change.

Nobody's arguing that they don't look and run better on high-end pc, ps4 pro and X1X. But don't you want to see next gen games that are unlike anything we're seeing today on consoles or pc. Or, are you fine with playing the exact same games we got now with just higher res and fps? If you look at Ray Tracing, there's no way we will see games making good use of it and run at native 4k and 60fps. If we will get it this gen, the consoles will probably be pushed to their limits at 1080p/30fps, and it will look unlike anything we're seeing today on consoles or pc.  



goopy20 said:

Nobody's arguing that they don't look and run better on high-end pc, ps4 pro and X1X. But don't you want to see next gen games that are unlike anything we're seeing today on consoles or pc. Or, are you fine with playing the exact same games we got now with just higher res and fps? If you look at Ray Tracing, there's no way we will see games making good use of it and run at native 4k and 60fps. If we will get it this gen, the consoles will probably be pushed to their limits at 1080p/30fps, and it will look unlike anything we're seeing today on consoles or pc.  

Yes, I want to see next gen games that are unlike anything we're seeing today on consoles or pc.... and eventually we will get them.

But designing/programming these games takes time, and much more time than the one or two years developers have access to developer consoles.

That's why most true next gen experiences in the first two years of most consoles of the last 15 years weren't very good games.

On the other hand many of the best games didn't have the focus to be a true next gen experiences but instead had the focus to be a very very good game experience.

Twilight Princess didn't push the hardware limit in 2006, it released on Wii and N64.

God of War 2 didn't push the hardware limit in 2007, it released on PS2 instead of PS3.

The Last of Us didn't push the hardware limit in 2013, it released on PS3 instead of PS4.

Grand Theft Auto V didn't push the hardware limit in 2013, it released on PS3+360 instead of PS4+Xbox1.

The Breath of the Wild didn't push the hardware limit in 2017, it released on Switch and Wii U.

The Last of Us 2 doesn't push the hardware limit in 2020, it releases on PS4 instead of PS5.

True next gen experiences in the first two years of a new console gen often set their focus wrong... and knowing this I can totally understand Microsofts decision: They give their first party "true next gen experiences" the development time they need (at least 3 years), but third party developers are allowed to release their "true next gen experiences" sooner on the Xbox Series X.

Last edited by Conina - on 15 February 2020

goopy20 said:
Conina said:

It may be the same game, but on beefier hardware it looks sooo much better and plays smoother than on the base console.

All game engines nowadays are scalable and better hardware takes good use of the extra performance, often even automatic (dynamic effects and dynamic resolutions and variable refresh rate).

The days of pushing the latest hardware (also on consoles) may be over, but so is "programming close to the metal" with only one set of fixed hardware specs in mind. For multiplatform games that has been a given in the last decade, but even console exclusives now have to be scalable and have to take good use of the extra performance (PS4 Pro mode, Xbox Enhanced mode, Switch docked mode). 

Of course Uncharted 1 - 3 are supposed to look a lot better on a PS4 than on a PS3 with higher framerates or at least more stable fps + frametimes without slowdowns.

Of course Uncharted 4 + Lost Legacy are supposed to look a lot better on a PS4 Pro than on a PS4 Slim with higher framerates or at least more stable fps + frametimes without slowdowns.

Of course Horizon: Zero Dawn + Marvel's Spider-Man are supposed to look a lot better on a PS4 Pro than on a PS4 Slim with higher framerates or at least more stable fps + frametimes without slowdowns.

And I would be disappointed if those games don't profit from the extra performance of a PS5.

Of course Forza Horizon 3 + 4 are supposed to look a lot better on an Xbox One X than on an Xbox One S with higher framerates or at least more stable fps + frametimes without slowdowns... and even better on good PCs.

Of course Gears of War 4 + 5 are supposed to look a lot better on an Xbox One X than on an Xbox One S with higher framerates or at least more stable fps + frametimes without slowdowns... and even better on good PCs.

And I would be disappointed if those games don't profit from the extra performance of a Xbox Series X.

Of course docked Switch games are supposed to look a lot better than undocked Switch games or the Wii U versions with higher framerates or at least more stable fps + frametimes without slowdowns.

And I would be disappointed if those games don't profit from the extra performance of a Switch Pro / Switch 2 in a few years.

Or look at the huge scalability and improvements of Bayonetta 1 (PC > Xbox One X > PS4 Pro > PS4 > Xbox One S > Switch docked > Switch undocked > Wii U > Xbox 360 > PS3).

Or look at the huge scalability and improvements of Red Dead Redemption (Xbox One X >>> Xbox One S > Xbox 360 > PS3).

Or look at the huge visual improvements of Quake 2 RTX compared to the original Quake 2.

Or look at the huge visual improvements of Minecraft RTX compared to the original Minecraft and the mobile versions.

All game engines are highly scalable nowadays and that won't change.

Nobody's arguing that they don't look and run better on high-end pc, ps4 pro and X1X. But don't you want to see next gen games that are unlike anything we're seeing today on consoles or pc. Or, are you fine with playing the exact same games we got now with just higher res and fps? If you look at Ray Tracing, there's no way we will see games making good use of it and run at native 4k and 60fps. If we will get it this gen, the consoles will probably be pushed to their limits at 1080p/30fps, and it will look unlike anything we're seeing today on consoles or pc.  

Like we have been discussing for over a week (lol), true next gen games don’t come close to making the most of hardware until well into the gen. 

MS accepts this, and will simply make the game available to more and focus on making them really great experiences. 
Sony on the other hand will lock their next gen games to PS5 but also won’t come close to realizing the full potential. 


So really your only argument is one from a business perspective (whether they should make games cross gen) but not from a gamers perspective. Series X versions can and will have the “wow” factor when compared to its weaker counterparts but ultimately it’s quality will speak volumes louder.



Xbox: Best hardware, Game Pass best value, best BC, more 1st party genres and multiplayer titles.