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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - Scarlett Will Prioritize Frame Rate Over Graphics

Tagged games:

 

Do you prefer 60/4k with reduced visuals or 30/4k with increased visuals?

YES! 30 40.00%
 
No. 5 6.67%
 
Depends on the game. 32 42.67%
 
I dont care. 8 10.67%
 
Total:75
Pemalite on 06 December 2019
Mr Puggsly said:

Even if a 480p console had a digital output, the games are still gonna look bad on a HD screen due to low resolution. I was playing with Halo Reach's resolution settings on PC, I can assure 480p looks terrible. But fine you want a OG Xbox flavor.

The OG Xbox has nothing to do with it. Again. Many Switch games operate at 480P and look fine. (All things considered.)

The Witcher 3 for example will drop under 480P (810x456 to be exact) on Switch. Still an impressive looking title in handheld mode on mobile hardware.
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2019-the-witcher-3-switch-tech-analysis

And Doom can drop to 432P on Switch, still a good looking game on portable.

And Zelda will drop to as low as 360P in areas, still looks absolutely amazing.
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2018-switch-mobile-mode-analysed-in-unprecedented-detail

The WiiU with Breath of the Wild, the game looks great on the 480P tablet or on the TV at 720P.

Now... Again, you probably didn't read my last post in it's entirety, especially that part about LCD panels and native resolutions and all that... And AGAIN 480P can look okay, depending on display technology, display size and the distance you are from said display.
Digital Foundry's CRT analysis, give it a watch.


Mr Puggsly said:

I've played games varying from 720p to 4K on large screens (60-70"). I still say the disparity there isn't as big as 480p to 720p. Not all games running 720p is equal of course, AA has become so advanced that 720p experiences can look surprisingly good. While others can be more muddy or pixelated.

There is a difference between 720P and 4k on my Display and the distance I sit from said display.
Shit. I notice a massive difference on my 1440P computer monitor between 720P and 1440P, it's a massive jump... And not only is it literally a larger jump (4x pixel increase) but the perceived difference in sharpness is much larger too on my panel.


Mr Puggsly said:

480p looks okay on a small screen like the Wii U tablet and sometimes Switch games are doing that resolution. Vita was often doing 480p or lower in demanding games. Even 240p has been acceptable on the tiny 3DS screen.

Now you are starting to get it.

Mr Puggsly said:

If a game like DB on Gamecube is doing 512x224, doesn't make sense to call it 224p because the ratio is so unusual. Same goes for modern games doing 1920x2160, like RDR2 on PS4 Pro.

It's 16:7.
https://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/math/ratios.php
It is Anamorphic to get it to 16:9 or Black Bars. (Never played it on Gamecube.)

The "P" actually stands for progressive scan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_scan

The thing with progressive scan is that it displays all the scanlines at the timetime, which is in stark contrast to interlaced which will only display odd or even scanlines.

Just in the modern era, if you are using something like 480P it is assumed it's in a 16:9 aspect ratio or some such.

Mr Puggsly said:

From what I've seen component is capable of 1080p, not just 1080i. I think this depends on the television, older TVs might be limited to 1080i. From my experience and what I've read, component can be at par with HDMI.

Depends on the component cable and the output device in question. (I.E. Gamecube will only push out 480P via Component as it's RGB)
https://en.everybodywiki.com/List_of_GameCube_games_with_alternate_display_modes

Y/Pb/Pr component video will do 1920x1080 resolutions and progressive scan.

There is a reason why the Original Xbox and Playstation 2 top out at 1080i. - I'll let you figure out why though.
https://sonicwbii.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_PlayStation_2_games_with_alternative_display_modes
https://en.everybodywiki.com/List_of_Xbox_games_with_alternate_display_modes






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Mr Puggsly on 06 December 2019
mikicezanne said:
Isn't performance optimization up to the developers and not the console itself?

It helps if MS gives them the specs to achieve 60 fps with relative ease.

I think its safe to assume more X1X and Pro games would offer 60 fps if the CPU wasn't so limited.



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Mr Puggsly on 06 December 2019
Technarchy said:
mikicezanne said:
Isn't performance optimization up to the developers and not the console itself?

Largely, yes. Hence why we need to pay very close attention to how Xbox One X games run on Scarlett. Any hint of dynamic scaling down to 1440P and frame drops and it's a sign Scarlett is underpowered out the gate.

Nothing currently available should in any way be taxing to Scarlett. Even unoptimized, Scarlett should be able brute force titles like X1X RDR2 without breaking a sweat.

I disagree with this theory. X1 and PS4 have been fine this gen even if arguably underpowered.

But if Scarlett and/or PS5 can run RDR2 at 4K/60 fps with current console graphics, great. I might be wrong but I get the impression MS is planning to have the most powerful hardware. Unless Sony surprises them.



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Mr Puggsly on 06 December 2019
Pemalite said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Even if a 480p console had a digital output, the games are still gonna look bad on a HD screen due to low resolution. I was playing with Halo Reach's resolution settings on PC, I can assure 480p looks terrible. But fine you want a OG Xbox flavor.

The OG Xbox has nothing to do with it. Again. Many Switch games operate at 480P and look fine. (All things considered.)

The Witcher 3 for example will drop under 480P (810x456 to be exact) on Switch. Still an impressive looking title in handheld mode on mobile hardware.
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2019-the-witcher-3-switch-tech-analysis

And Doom can drop to 432P on Switch, still a good looking game on portable.

And Zelda will drop to as low as 360P in areas, still looks absolutely amazing.
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2018-switch-mobile-mode-analysed-in-unprecedented-detail

The WiiU with Breath of the Wild, the game looks great on the 480P tablet or on the TV at 720P.

Now... Again, you probably didn't read my last post in it's entirety, especially that part about LCD panels and native resolutions and all that... And AGAIN 480P can look okay, depending on display technology, display size and the distance you are from said display.
Digital Foundry's CRT analysis, give it a watch.

Mr Puggsly said:

I've played games varying from 720p to 4K on large screens (60-70"). I still say the disparity there isn't as big as 480p to 720p. Not all games running 720p is equal of course, AA has become so advanced that 720p experiences can look surprisingly good. While others can be more muddy or pixelated.

There is a difference between 720P and 4k on my Display and the distance I sit from said display.
Shit. I notice a massive difference on my 1440P computer monitor between 720P and 1440P, it's a massive jump... And not only is it literally a larger jump (4x pixel increase) but the perceived difference in sharpness is much larger too on my panel.

Mr Puggsly said:

480p looks okay on a small screen like the Wii U tablet and sometimes Switch games are doing that resolution. Vita was often doing 480p or lower in demanding games. Even 240p has been acceptable on the tiny 3DS screen.

Now you are starting to get it.

Mr Puggsly said:

If a game like DB on Gamecube is doing 512x224, doesn't make sense to call it 224p because the ratio is so unusual. Same goes for modern games doing 1920x2160, like RDR2 on PS4 Pro.

It's 16:7.
https://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/math/ratios.php
It is Anamorphic to get it to 16:9 or Black Bars. (Never played it on Gamecube.)

The "P" actually stands for progressive scan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_scan

The thing with progressive scan is that it displays all the scanlines at the timetime, which is in stark contrast to interlaced which will only display odd or even scanlines.

Just in the modern era, if you are using something like 480P it is assumed it's in a 16:9 aspect ratio or some such.

Mr Puggsly said:

From what I've seen component is capable of 1080p, not just 1080i. I think this depends on the television, older TVs might be limited to 1080i. From my experience and what I've read, component can be at par with HDMI.

Depends on the component cable and the output device in question. (I.E. Gamecube will only push out 480P via Component as it's RGB)
https://en.everybodywiki.com/List_of_GameCube_games_with_alternate_display_modes

Y/Pb/Pr component video will do 1920x1080 resolutions and progressive scan.

There is a reason why the Original Xbox and Playstation 2 top out at 1080i. - I'll let you figure out why though.
https://sonicwbii.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_PlayStation_2_games_with_alternative_display_modes
https://en.everybodywiki.com/List_of_Xbox_games_with_alternate_display_modes

480p is fine... on a screen that's a few inches these days.

I'm not really sure what your point about modern gaming on CRT monitors is. I agree games look good on them but they're also a much higher resolution than 480p CRT TVs. If they were playing those same games at say... 480p, it would look bad.

I mean 1024x768 (resolution he played Control) is actually pretty close to 960x720 (720p cut to a 4:3 ratio). I feel 720p even now is fine for most modern gaming, its not amazing but acceptable for pretty much all games.

I actually played a lot of PS3 and 360 on a 480p CRT TV, games probably looked better due to the higher native resolution. But small text was mud. I imagine playing 7th/8th gen RTS games on a 480p display could be difficult as well, I've already had trouble distinguishing units at 720p unless I zoom in.

You're missing the point. I know there is a big difference between 720p, 1080 or 1440p on a HD/4K TV or PC monitor. I'm really saying 720p looks okay even on a large 4K screen. In many modern PC games, 720p is a functional resolution that's still somewhat sharp and reading text shouldn't be an issue. Many modern games in 480p, it just turns into a mess.



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DonFerrari on 06 December 2019
Mr Puggsly said:
Hiku said:

Well that's the thing. It's easier to market impressive looking visuals than smooth framerate. 
Whether it's screenshots, posters or trailers. They go for what's more immediately eye catching. Which probably plays a big role in why so many developers tend to prioritize visuals, no matter how much power they get in a system. I don't expect things to change much in this regard with Scarlett and PS5.

But there are games that offer both impressive visuals and smooth frame rate. Especially on the X1X because it more often achieves 60 fps with 1440p-4K. Gears 5 for example has great visuals, 60 fps, and the resolution is high (1584p to 4K).

I think its worth considering any games that can function at 1440p-4K/30 fps on 9th gen hardware, should also be able to function at a lower resolution with 60 fps. Hopefully developers will let us choose in those scenarios.

I'm curious to see if there will be 9th gen games that are so visually cutting edge they only run at 1080p/30 fps. I don't think those experiences will have 60 fps options.

And still wouldn't look better than Horizon, Spider-Man, TLOU2 or God of War on PS4Pro being 30% weaker.

Doubling the fps will take away from what is possible on IQ, be it resolution, effects or anything else.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

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DonFerrari on 06 December 2019
Pemalite said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Even if a 480p console had a digital output, the games are still gonna look bad on a HD screen due to low resolution. I was playing with Halo Reach's resolution settings on PC, I can assure 480p looks terrible. But fine you want a OG Xbox flavor.

The OG Xbox has nothing to do with it. Again. Many Switch games operate at 480P and look fine. (All things considered.)

The Witcher 3 for example will drop under 480P (810x456 to be exact) on Switch. Still an impressive looking title in handheld mode on mobile hardware.
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2019-the-witcher-3-switch-tech-analysis

And Doom can drop to 432P on Switch, still a good looking game on portable.

And Zelda will drop to as low as 360P in areas, still looks absolutely amazing.
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2018-switch-mobile-mode-analysed-in-unprecedented-detail

The WiiU with Breath of the Wild, the game looks great on the 480P tablet or on the TV at 720P.

Now... Again, you probably didn't read my last post in it's entirety, especially that part about LCD panels and native resolutions and all that... And AGAIN 480P can look okay, depending on display technology, display size and the distance you are from said display.
Digital Foundry's CRT analysis, give it a watch.


Mr Puggsly said:

I've played games varying from 720p to 4K on large screens (60-70"). I still say the disparity there isn't as big as 480p to 720p. Not all games running 720p is equal of course, AA has become so advanced that 720p experiences can look surprisingly good. While others can be more muddy or pixelated.

There is a difference between 720P and 4k on my Display and the distance I sit from said display.
Shit. I notice a massive difference on my 1440P computer monitor between 720P and 1440P, it's a massive jump... And not only is it literally a larger jump (4x pixel increase) but the perceived difference in sharpness is much larger too on my panel.


Mr Puggsly said:

480p looks okay on a small screen like the Wii U tablet and sometimes Switch games are doing that resolution. Vita was often doing 480p or lower in demanding games. Even 240p has been acceptable on the tiny 3DS screen.

Now you are starting to get it.

Mr Puggsly said:

If a game like DB on Gamecube is doing 512x224, doesn't make sense to call it 224p because the ratio is so unusual. Same goes for modern games doing 1920x2160, like RDR2 on PS4 Pro.

It's 16:7.
https://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/math/ratios.php
It is Anamorphic to get it to 16:9 or Black Bars. (Never played it on Gamecube.)

The "P" actually stands for progressive scan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_scan

The thing with progressive scan is that it displays all the scanlines at the timetime, which is in stark contrast to interlaced which will only display odd or even scanlines.

Just in the modern era, if you are using something like 480P it is assumed it's in a 16:9 aspect ratio or some such.

Mr Puggsly said:

From what I've seen component is capable of 1080p, not just 1080i. I think this depends on the television, older TVs might be limited to 1080i. From my experience and what I've read, component can be at par with HDMI.

Depends on the component cable and the output device in question. (I.E. Gamecube will only push out 480P via Component as it's RGB)
https://en.everybodywiki.com/List_of_GameCube_games_with_alternate_display_modes

Y/Pb/Pr component video will do 1920x1080 resolutions and progressive scan.

There is a reason why the Original Xbox and Playstation 2 top out at 1080i. - I'll let you figure out why though.
https://sonicwbii.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_PlayStation_2_games_with_alternative_display_modes
https://en.everybodywiki.com/List_of_Xbox_games_with_alternate_display_modes

How much impact would you expect on the visuals of a game if they gone from 2160p30fps to 2160i60fps?

Would that basically generate the same processing power need (since you are trading half the lines for double the refresh rate)? And the quality of the image would be much worsened? And if that half lines used the technique of temporal holding the old line so it refreshes half the lines but keep the older one for another frame?



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Mr Puggsly on 06 December 2019
DonFerrari said:
Mr Puggsly said:

But there are games that offer both impressive visuals and smooth frame rate. Especially on the X1X because it more often achieves 60 fps with 1440p-4K. Gears 5 for example has great visuals, 60 fps, and the resolution is high (1584p to 4K).

I think its worth considering any games that can function at 1440p-4K/30 fps on 9th gen hardware, should also be able to function at a lower resolution with 60 fps. Hopefully developers will let us choose in those scenarios.

I'm curious to see if there will be 9th gen games that are so visually cutting edge they only run at 1080p/30 fps. I don't think those experiences will have 60 fps options.

And still wouldn't look better than Horizon, Spider-Man, TLOU2 or God of War on PS4Pro being 30% weaker.

Doubling the fps will take away from what is possible on IQ, be it resolution, effects or anything else.

You're missing the point, there are games that look great while doing 60 fps. Especially on Premium hardware.

Gears 5, BFV and the latest CoD are all great looking games even while doing 60 fps. Also, they all have higher resolutions on X1X than all the PS4 games you mentioned.

God of War has a 60 fps mode and I think it only affects the resolution. Its not locked at 60 fps probably due to lack of CPU power. Seems to stay around 45-60 fps from a quick glance at a VGTech video.

Edit: I just saw the DF video look at TLoU2 on Pro. Its 1440p, in theory they could lower the resolution for 60 fps. But its unlikely the CPU could maintain 60 fps. If next gen hardware has great CPUs, then hitting 60 fps will be easier with just a resolution compromise.

Also, games shouldn't have to scale back effects if they compromise resolution enough. But sometimes effects are scaled to use less CPU power, a big issue on 8th gen specs. Which should be less of an issue for next gen.

Last edited by Mr Puggsly - on 06 December 2019

Recently Completed: 
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DonFerrari on 06 December 2019
Mr Puggsly said:
DonFerrari said:

And still wouldn't look better than Horizon, Spider-Man, TLOU2 or God of War on PS4Pro being 30% weaker.

Doubling the fps will take away from what is possible on IQ, be it resolution, effects or anything else.

You're missing the point, there are games that look great while doing 60 fps. Especially on Premium hardware.

Gears 5, BFV and the latest CoD are all great looking games even while doing 60 fps. Also, they all have higher resolutions on X1X than all the PS4 games you mentioned.

God of War has a 60 fps mode and I think it only affects the resolution. Its not locked at 60 fps probably due to lack of CPU power. Seems to stay around 45-60 fps from a quick glance at a VGTech video.

Edit: I just saw the DF video look at TLoU2 on Pro. Its 1440p, in theory they could lower the resolution for 60 fps. But its unlikely the CPU could maintain 60 fps. If next gen hardware has great CPUs, then hitting 60 fps will be easier with just a resolution compromise.

Also, games shouldn't have to scale back effects if they compromise resolution enough. But sometimes effects are scaled to use less CPU power, a big issue on 8th gen specs. Which should be less of an issue for next gen.

Nope, you miss the point. The graphics will look better if the choose 30fps instead of 60fps, that much is certain.

And none of the games you listed looks better than GoW, SM or TLOU2.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Mr Puggsly on 06 December 2019
DonFerrari said:
Mr Puggsly said:

You're missing the point, there are games that look great while doing 60 fps. Especially on Premium hardware.

Gears 5, BFV and the latest CoD are all great looking games even while doing 60 fps. Also, they all have higher resolutions on X1X than all the PS4 games you mentioned.

God of War has a 60 fps mode and I think it only affects the resolution. Its not locked at 60 fps probably due to lack of CPU power. Seems to stay around 45-60 fps from a quick glance at a VGTech video.

Edit: I just saw the DF video look at TLoU2 on Pro. Its 1440p, in theory they could lower the resolution for 60 fps. But its unlikely the CPU could maintain 60 fps. If next gen hardware has great CPUs, then hitting 60 fps will be easier with just a resolution compromise.

Also, games shouldn't have to scale back effects if they compromise resolution enough. But sometimes effects are scaled to use less CPU power, a big issue on 8th gen specs. Which should be less of an issue for next gen.

Nope, you miss the point. The graphics will look better if the choose 30fps instead of 60fps, that much is certain.

And none of the games you listed looks better than GoW, SM or TLOU2.

In some ways CoD:MW, BFV and Gears 5 certainly look better than GoW, SM and even TLoU2. They also achieve 60 fps and have higher resolutions than 1440p (that's extra GPU power working).

More importantly, GoW demonstrates those same graphics can function in the ballpark of 60 fps with a lower resolution. I would actually say Gears 5 looks better than Spider-Man and God of War even though its 60 fps with a much higher resolution. But its not open world like Spider-Man.



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DonFerrari on 06 December 2019
Mr Puggsly said:
DonFerrari said:

Nope, you miss the point. The graphics will look better if the choose 30fps instead of 60fps, that much is certain.

And none of the games you listed looks better than GoW, SM or TLOU2.

In some ways CoD:MW, BFV and Gears 5 certainly look better than GoW, SM and even TLoU2. They also achieve 60 fps and have higher resolutions than 1440p (that's extra GPU power working).

More importantly, GoW demonstrates those same graphics can function in the ballpark of 60 fps with a lower resolution. I would actually say Gears 5 looks better than Spider-Man and God of War even though its 60 fps with a much higher resolution. But its not open world like Spider-Man.

In which way does it certainly looks better than these games?



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