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Are we all becoming pagan again?

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o_O.Q said:

"Yes they can.
Love can actually be explained scientifically as everything in our bodies is governed by electro-chemical impulses, governed by our brains."

ok, i'm waiting on that explanation

"Other feelings like Pride, Gender and Fear are the same."

ok, i'm waiting on that explanation

Instead of me having to do it. Read this instead: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotion

"Emotion is a mental state associated with the nervous system brought on by chemical changes variously associated with thoughts, feelings, behavioural responses, and a degree of pleasure or displeasure." - I.E. Dopamine is created when you are enjoying something, which is a reward, so you are more likely to do that activity again and thus helps drive feelings of pleasure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopamine

o_O.Q said:

"But just because you feel pride, love and so on... Doesn't mean God/Gods actually exists."

prove it, you don't have any evidence that god has not imbued us with these characteristics

Bit of a logical fallacy to assert that something that cannot be proven, fundamentally exists...
Again, the flying spaghetti monster has absolutely zero evidence supporting it's existence, doesn't mean it exists.

Thus, there is nothing to prove... As the burden of proof doesn't actually lay with me, it lays with the person asserting that their religious God exists.
It is the same concept that works in our rule of law, you can't just randomly point out a stranger and assert they went on a killing spree unless you have met that burden of proof.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy)

Mr Puggsly said:

Christianity was like a reform to the Jewish rules (does allow pork eating). Islam is something very different, something just awful. I'm not an expert but I've read the Koran, really gives you a better understanding why countries that embrace that religion suck.

I don't actually disagree.
They are all cut from the same cloth... Islam is awful, but I would argue that Christianity and Judaism, heck all religions are awful... Because religious "rules" tend to be pushed onto the masses. - I mean Same-sex marriage wasn't a "thing" until recently in many parts of the world... Why? Mostly because of religious christian conservatives in the western world.

mysteryman said:

What do you do when you reach the limitations of the scientific method? When something is simply not testable?

It's happened multiple times in history... The Scientific method for example couldn't explain how thunder and lightning occurred... So people chalked it up to various Norse Gods like "Thor".

But over time our understanding of the natural world improves... And we can thus build better tools, which then assists us in explaining the unexplainable.

In saying that... If we don't fundamentally understand something... It's not actually wrong or incorrect to just say "I don't know" rather than to assert a God (Which also  has no evidence to support it's position!) exists.

In saying that, I am a hard-line Atheist, proponent of equality and equal rights and a big supporter of science and the scientific method and being logical... If those who lean on religious indoctrination fundamentally disagree with my perspectives, that is fine as well.

mysteryman said:

Likewise how do you determine right and wrong? 

Certainly not from a religious book full of pretty terrible stances that promotes mass murder (1 Chronicles 21), Genocide (Deuteronomy 3), Death to those who believe in other Religions/Gods (2 Kings 10:18-27), Slavery and selling our daughter into Slavery (Exodus 21:1-11), child abuse (Judges 11:29-40 & Isaiah 13:16), Bashing babies against rocks (Hosea 13:16 & Psalms 137:9). - Granted that is all Old Testament, which many Christians will not follow unless it suits them (I.E. Leviticus against Homosexuality.)

But I could list some horrible stuff in the New Testament as well...

Not to mention that the New Testament is still binding to the Old Testament.

* “It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.” (Luke 16:17 NAB)

* “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.  Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17 NAB)


So how do I determine right from wrong? How does anyone? Empathy, pain, fear... Devices that are driven by life experience, governed by chemical processes that I alluded to prior... Matt Dillahunty could probably explain it better than I can though.

Last edited by Pemalite - 6 days ago

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mysteryman said:
Pemalite said:

What the majority believes is ultimately irrelevant... Again. Scientific method.

There have been historical instances where a particular belief was held by the majority and it was false.

The scientific method has flown us to other planets, it has given us advanced medicines that cure all sorts of ailments, has allowed us to travel great distances at speed and all the other modern comforts we enjoy today.

I think we can trust it over baseless religious assertions, it has the better track record in the end.

What do you do when you reach the limitations of the scientific method? When something is simply not testable?

Likewise how do you determine right and wrong? 

Well, speaking as an athiest, I use my conscience to determine what I think is right or wrong. You don't need religion to have empathy and compassion.



MrWayne said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Pretty sure Rome was on the decline by the time that happen. There was a lack of unity, poorly run government, they started relying on foreigners to fight their battles, etc.

Christianity doesent ruin countries, empires or whatever, atleast not by design. Its not Islam which plays a much bigger role in how countries operate.

Just a quick note on this point. Rom relied on foreigners in their army since almost the beginning, it was a major way to integrate the people in the newly conquered territories into the Roman society. Many historians think that the inability of the late Western Roman Empire to integrate the germanic tribes, who migrated into the empire and made up large parts of the roman military force, undermined the political system and eventually lead to the downfall of the Westen empire.

Also, many people seem to forget that the Eastern Roman Empire lasted almost another 1000 years after the downfall of the Western Empire.

To your second point, it is true that christianity doesn't ruin countries by design but the same is true for Islam so I wonder what you mean in the second part when you talk about how countries operate.

Islamic countries are the way they're because they follow the Koran. Its not just religion to them, its pretty much their entire culture and how policy is conducted.

Could we are there is a Christian state? There has been a lot more interpretation here, some argue The Old Testament has little relevance to Christianity given it was essentially a reform.

There is a difference between conquering land, bringing people into your empire and getting them to fight your battles versus paying foreigners simply to fight your battles. I do believe it really fell apart for economic reasons, the paid mercenaries weren't assimilated, weren't treated well, so had no loyalty to Rome. I could be wrong, its been a while but that's a fairly common argument.

The Holy Roman empire was not holy... don't think it was Roman... pretty sure it wasn't an empire either.



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Mr Puggsly said:

Islamic countries are the way they're because they follow the Koran. Its not just religion to them, its pretty much their entire culture and how policy is conducted.

Not really. The bad islamic countries are typically that way because of scummy dictators. But that results in shitty places to live regardless of whether they follow islam or not...



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Ka-pi96 said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Islamic countries are the way they're because they follow the Koran. Its not just religion to them, its pretty much their entire culture and how policy is conducted.

Not really. The bad islamic countries are typically that way because of scummy dictators. But that results in shitty places to live regardless of whether they follow islam or not...

I as well had the impression bad leadership was the cause for Islamic countries being the way they are, certainly a big part of it. Then I took into consideration the support for this style of government in those countries, the civil wars and Islamic people have essentially pushed their Sharia culture wherever they go.

Islam by design is intended to be the law of the land and those who don't follow Islam are inferior. That is made quite clear in the Koran and that's evident based on the decline of Christians and Jews in those countries.



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curl-6 said:
mysteryman said:

What do you do when you reach the limitations of the scientific method? When something is simply not testable?

Likewise how do you determine right and wrong? 

Well, speaking as an athiest, I use my conscience to determine what I think is right or wrong. You don't need religion to have empathy and compassion.

I don't think people need religion per se to have empathy and compassion, but people certainly need a culture that promotes these things.

Otherwise you end up with Chicago or Baltimore!



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Pemalite said:
o_O.Q said:

"Yes they can.
Love can actually be explained scientifically as everything in our bodies is governed by electro-chemical impulses, governed by our brains."

ok, i'm waiting on that explanation

"Other feelings like Pride, Gender and Fear are the same."

ok, i'm waiting on that explanation

Instead of me having to do it. Read this instead: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotion

"Emotion is a mental state associated with the nervous system brought on by chemical changes variously associated with thoughts, feelings, behavioural responses, and a degree of pleasure or displeasure." - I.E. Dopamine is created when you are enjoying something, which is a reward, so you are more likely to do that activity again and thus helps drive feelings of pleasure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopamine

o_O.Q said:

"But just because you feel pride, love and so on... Doesn't mean God/Gods actually exists."

prove it, you don't have any evidence that god has not imbued us with these characteristics

Bit of a logical fallacy to assert that something that cannot be proven, fundamentally exists...
Again, the flying spaghetti monster has absolutely zero evidence supporting it's existence, doesn't mean it exists.

Thus, there is nothing to prove... As the burden of proof doesn't actually lay with me, it lays with the person asserting that their religious God exists.
It is the same concept that works in our rule of law, you can't just randomly point out a stranger and assert they went on a killing spree unless you have met that burden of proof.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy)

Mr Puggsly said:

Christianity was like a reform to the Jewish rules (does allow pork eating). Islam is something very different, something just awful. I'm not an expert but I've read the Koran, really gives you a better understanding why countries that embrace that religion suck.

I don't actually disagree.
They are all cut from the same cloth... Islam is awful, but I would argue that Christianity and Judaism, heck all religions are awful... Because religious "rules" tend to be pushed onto the masses. - I mean Same-sex marriage wasn't a "thing" until recently in many parts of the world... Why? Mostly because of religious christian conservatives in the western world.

mysteryman said:

What do you do when you reach the limitations of the scientific method? When something is simply not testable?

It's happened multiple times in history... The Scientific method for example couldn't explain how thunder and lightning occurred... So people chalked it up to various Norse Gods like "Thor".

But over time our understanding of the natural world improves... And we can thus build better tools, which then assists us in explaining the unexplainable.

In saying that... If we don't fundamentally understand something... It's not actually wrong or incorrect to just say "I don't know" rather than to assert a God (Which also  has no evidence to support it's position!) exists.

In saying that, I am a hard-line Atheist, proponent of equality and equal rights and a big supporter of science and the scientific method and being logical... If those who lean on religious indoctrination fundamentally disagree with my perspectives, that is fine as well.

mysteryman said:

Likewise how do you determine right and wrong? 

Certainly not from a religious book full of pretty terrible stances that promotes mass murder (1 Chronicles 21), Genocide (Deuteronomy 3), Death to those who believe in other Religions/Gods (2 Kings 10:18-27), Slavery and selling our daughter into Slavery (Exodus 21:1-11), child abuse (Judges 11:29-40 & Isaiah 13:16), Bashing babies against rocks (Hosea 13:16 & Psalms 137:9). - Granted that is all Old Testament, which many Christians will not follow unless it suits them (I.E. Leviticus against Homosexuality.)

But I could list some horrible stuff in the New Testament as well...

Not to mention that the New Testament is still binding to the Old Testament.

* “It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.” (Luke 16:17 NAB)

* “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.  Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17 NAB)


So how do I determine right from wrong? How does anyone? Empathy, pain, fear... Devices that are driven by life experience, governed by chemical processes that I alluded to prior... Matt Dillahunty could probably explain it better than I can though.

this does not in anyway address what I've asked you 

you cannot explain why a man for example will choose to love and stay with a woman who is much less attractive to another woman that he may interact with

if the only thing you are taking into consideration is material then clearly he should be ditching one woman for the next

you cannot explain why some people are scared of things like cotton balls or clowns or whatever for seemingly no reason

why people in a sexually dimorphic species would choose to identify as cats 

dopamine is released as a reaction to an enjoyable activity its not proactive but reactive, it has no part to play in this argument

while you're at it explain consciousness for me with a material/scientific explanation

"Bit of a logical fallacy to assert that something that cannot be proven, fundamentally exists... "

and its just as bad to assert the opposite



Monogamy ≠ Religion. If you want to sleep around with multiple random partners go for it, no one is stopping you but know that no action is free from criticism or disagreement especially in this day and age.



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Y'know how they say that men sleep around more than women? Statistically, wouldn't those numbers be equal, on average, as for every man sleeping around there must be a woman doing the same? Probably haven't thought it through enough, though.



Mr Puggsly said:
curl-6 said:

Well, speaking as an athiest, I use my conscience to determine what I think is right or wrong. You don't need religion to have empathy and compassion.

I don't think people need religion per se to have empathy and compassion, but people certainly need a culture that promotes these things.

Otherwise you end up with Chicago or Baltimore!

A religious culture does not necessarily promote empathy and compassion.  Likewise a secular culture does not necessarily not promote empathy and compassion.