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Forums - Sales Discussion - MS Q4 report: Xbox hardware down 48% YOY

thismeintiel said:
The_Liquid_Laser said:

The XBox360 released a year before the PS3 and that worked out pretty well for them.  The main problem with Dreamcast was not the release date.  It was that Sega was out of money and couldn't afford to stay in the console business.  Microsoft is not going to have that problem.  Releasing this year would have been a good idea.

The big reason they did so well last gen is because the PS3 was $200 more expensive than the 360 and the PS3 had such complicated HW that it took devs awhile to get used to it, resulting in inferior multiplats for the first year or so. Scarlett will be going against a PS5 with most likely the same price and possibly a little more power, which will be on display at launch.

If MS launched this year, they may have been able to drop the price by $50 in time for the PS5's launch, but there would have been a much larger power difference. In that scenario, there is no question that Scarlett would have fared much worse than the XBO.

curl-6 said:
The_Liquid_Laser said:

The XBox360 released a year before the PS3 and that worked out pretty well for them.  The main problem with Dreamcast was not the release date.  It was that Sega was out of money and couldn't afford to stay in the console business.  Microsoft is not going to have that problem.  Releasing this year would have been a good idea.

As others have said, it's not quite analogous to PS3 vs 360; a lot of 360's gains came from Sony's disastrous missteps with the PS3, MS cannot rely on Sony being that foolish again with PS5. If Scarlet came out this year, then Sony followed with a significantly more capable PS5 next year, Xbox would most likely get steamrolled. For Scarlet to have a fighting chance they need to be both price and power competitive, that's not gonna happen if they go a year early.

You both are reading the generation 7 wrong.  PS3 flopped because it was too powerful.  That is the main reason.  Power is a disadvantage because it goes hand in hand with a higher price.  XBox360 and PS3 had mostly the same games, but XBox360 was cheaper.  That made it the dominant platform in the US and UK.

The worst thing Sony can do is make PS5 more powerful than Scarlett, because that will drive up the price.  Even if it costs $50 more, it will be a repeat of generation 7.  Given it won't help Microsoft in non-English speaking countries, but the US and UK are ready to go for Microsoft again if given a decent reason like a cheaper price.



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The_Liquid_Laser said:
thismeintiel said:

The big reason they did so well last gen is because the PS3 was $200 more expensive than the 360 and the PS3 had such complicated HW that it took devs awhile to get used to it, resulting in inferior multiplats for the first year or so. Scarlett will be going against a PS5 with most likely the same price and possibly a little more power, which will be on display at launch.

If MS launched this year, they may have been able to drop the price by $50 in time for the PS5's launch, but there would have been a much larger power difference. In that scenario, there is no question that Scarlett would have fared much worse than the XBO.

curl-6 said:

As others have said, it's not quite analogous to PS3 vs 360; a lot of 360's gains came from Sony's disastrous missteps with the PS3, MS cannot rely on Sony being that foolish again with PS5. If Scarlet came out this year, then Sony followed with a significantly more capable PS5 next year, Xbox would most likely get steamrolled. For Scarlet to have a fighting chance they need to be both price and power competitive, that's not gonna happen if they go a year early.

You both are reading the generation 7 wrong.  PS3 flopped because it was too powerful.  That is the main reason.  Power is a disadvantage because it goes hand in hand with a higher price.  XBox360 and PS3 had mostly the same games, but XBox360 was cheaper.  That made it the dominant platform in the US and UK.

The worst thing Sony can do is make PS5 more powerful than Scarlett, because that will drive up the price.  Even if it costs $50 more, it will be a repeat of generation 7.  Given it won't help Microsoft in non-English speaking countries, but the US and UK are ready to go for Microsoft again if given a decent reason like a cheaper price.

Not true; PS3 really wasn't that much more powerful than the 360, it was even weaker in some ways. It was expensive cos it used a ridiculous over-engineered custom chipset and a Blu-Ray player.

PS4 was cheaper than the Xbone yet it was more powerful. PS5 could exceed Scarlet's power at the same price launching a year later.



The holidays will be really interesting in general, but I'm especially interested in seeing how the XBO performs. I'm thinking, unless they go gonzo and have price reductions that go beyond the norm, the current sales climate will manifest itself during that crucial period as well, in the form of markedly lower numbers during black Friday/Christmas. As always, who knows. Maybe they'll pull one out and sell very well with prices that are in step with it's competitors.



- "If you have the heart of a true winner, you can always get more pissed off than some other asshole."

curl-6 said:
The_Liquid_Laser said:

You both are reading the generation 7 wrong.  PS3 flopped because it was too powerful.  That is the main reason.  Power is a disadvantage because it goes hand in hand with a higher price.  XBox360 and PS3 had mostly the same games, but XBox360 was cheaper.  That made it the dominant platform in the US and UK.

The worst thing Sony can do is make PS5 more powerful than Scarlett, because that will drive up the price.  Even if it costs $50 more, it will be a repeat of generation 7.  Given it won't help Microsoft in non-English speaking countries, but the US and UK are ready to go for Microsoft again if given a decent reason like a cheaper price.

Not true; PS3 really wasn't that much more powerful than the 360, it was even weaker in some ways. It was expensive cos it used a ridiculous over-engineered custom chipset and a Blu-Ray player.

PS4 was cheaper than the Xbone yet it was more powerful. PS5 could exceed Scarlet's power at the same price launching a year later.

PS3 was more powerful than the 360.  I am including the Blu-Ray drive in that, since a Blu-Ray disc has significantly more capacity than a XB360 disc.  Overall the specs on the PS3 were clearly better (disc drive, clock speed, hard drive, etc...), but that drove up the price.

PS4 also proves my point, because the PS4 launched at a cheaper price and it trounced on the XB1.  Price matters a lot.  Price matters so much that it also makes power a disadvantage.  All other things being equal the weaker console has an advantage over a more powerful one.  Of course an expensive peripheral like Kinect can totally destroy that advantage, but that doesn't change the fact that having the weaker console is an advantage.  This is especially true when comparing Sony and Microsoft consoles, because they get mostly the same games.  In the end a lot of people just buy the cheaper console, and the easiest way to be cheaper is to be weaker.



The_Liquid_Laser said:
curl-6 said:

Not true; PS3 really wasn't that much more powerful than the 360, it was even weaker in some ways. It was expensive cos it used a ridiculous over-engineered custom chipset and a Blu-Ray player.

PS4 was cheaper than the Xbone yet it was more powerful. PS5 could exceed Scarlet's power at the same price launching a year later.

PS3 was more powerful than the 360.  I am including the Blu-Ray drive in that, since a Blu-Ray disc has significantly more capacity than a XB360 disc.  Overall the specs on the PS3 were clearly better (disc drive, clock speed, hard drive, etc...), but that drove up the price.

PS4 also proves my point, because the PS4 launched at a cheaper price and it trounced on the XB1.  Price matters a lot.  Price matters so much that it also makes power a disadvantage.  All other things being equal the weaker console has an advantage over a more powerful one.  Of course an expensive peripheral like Kinect can totally destroy that advantage, but that doesn't change the fact that having the weaker console is an advantage.  This is especially true when comparing Sony and Microsoft consoles, because they get mostly the same games.  In the end a lot of people just buy the cheaper console, and the easiest way to be cheaper is to be weaker.

360 outperforms PS3 in several areas, such as available RAM, fillrate, and bandwidth. It's a marketing myth that PS3 was far more powerful. It's price was due to using exotic rather than standardized parts.

If MS came out this year with a $500 Scarlet, Sony would just come out with a more powerful $500 PS5 next year, and from then on Scarlet would be crushed.



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The_Liquid_Laser said:
curl-6 said:

Not true; PS3 really wasn't that much more powerful than the 360, it was even weaker in some ways. It was expensive cos it used a ridiculous over-engineered custom chipset and a Blu-Ray player.

PS4 was cheaper than the Xbone yet it was more powerful. PS5 could exceed Scarlet's power at the same price launching a year later.

PS3 was more powerful than the 360.  I am including the Blu-Ray drive in that, since a Blu-Ray disc has significantly more capacity than a XB360 disc.  Overall the specs on the PS3 were clearly better (disc drive, clock speed, hard drive, etc...), but that drove up the price.

PS4 also proves my point, because the PS4 launched at a cheaper price and it trounced on the XB1.  Price matters a lot.  Price matters so much that it also makes power a disadvantage.  All other things being equal the weaker console has an advantage over a more powerful one.  Of course an expensive peripheral like Kinect can totally destroy that advantage, but that doesn't change the fact that having the weaker console is an advantage.  This is especially true when comparing Sony and Microsoft consoles, because they get mostly the same games.  In the end a lot of people just buy the cheaper console, and the easiest way to be cheaper is to be weaker.

Let's throw in some bells and whistles you guys are missing. Yeah, the Blu-Ray playback. But also 4 USB ports, the PS2 emotion engine, 2 SD card readers, HDMI ready. Hell, they even had a web browser. A console first. That must have cost soooomthing to implement. The Slim cut 2 USB ports, all the SD slots, and the emotion engine to reduce cost. Also, sorry for using the term "emotion engine".



- "If you have the heart of a true winner, you can always get more pissed off than some other asshole."

curl-6 said:
The_Liquid_Laser said:

PS3 was more powerful than the 360.  I am including the Blu-Ray drive in that, since a Blu-Ray disc has significantly more capacity than a XB360 disc.  Overall the specs on the PS3 were clearly better (disc drive, clock speed, hard drive, etc...), but that drove up the price.

PS4 also proves my point, because the PS4 launched at a cheaper price and it trounced on the XB1.  Price matters a lot.  Price matters so much that it also makes power a disadvantage.  All other things being equal the weaker console has an advantage over a more powerful one.  Of course an expensive peripheral like Kinect can totally destroy that advantage, but that doesn't change the fact that having the weaker console is an advantage.  This is especially true when comparing Sony and Microsoft consoles, because they get mostly the same games.  In the end a lot of people just buy the cheaper console, and the easiest way to be cheaper is to be weaker.

360 outperforms PS3 in several areas, such as available RAM, fillrate, and bandwidth. It's a marketing myth that PS3 was far more powerful. It's price was due to using exotic rather than standardized parts.

If MS came out this year with a $500 Scarlet, Sony would just come out with a more powerful $500 PS5 next year, and from then on Scarlet would be crushed.

No, because if Sony can make a more powerful $500 console a year later, then Microsoft could just drop the price on theirs.  Then it would be a $400(ish) console vs. a $500 console that plays the same games.  The $400 console would crush the $500 one.  (At least in English speaking countries, which is where Microsoft actually has an appeal.)

Let me put it this way.  There are a lot of people out there who think Lamborghini makes really cool cars.  They are far, far cooler than any Toyota out there.  But if Lamborghini is so cool, then why doesn't everyone have one?  Lamborghini costs too much.  All of that power seems like an advantage, but it really is a disadvantage, because it drives up the price.  Lots of people buy sensible (lame) Toyotas instead, because that is what they can afford.  There are probably even some Lamborghini owners out there who can't imagine why anyone would ever get a Toyota.  And yet those lame-ass Toyotas are always going to sell a lot more than the super-cool Lamborghinis, because the Toyotas cost less.

Consoles work the same way.  Powerful consoles seem cool, but they are really putting themselves at a disadvantage.  Most people just want the cheaper console even if it is less powerful.  Also people like a console with more games on it.  So if a console launches a year earlier, then it has an extra year to build up a game library.  This is exactly what happened with the XBox360.  It had a year head start on games and it cost less than the PS3.  The XBox360 totally crushed the PS3 is the US and UK.  Extra power does not really help, because it drives up the price.



The_Liquid_Laser said:
curl-6 said:

360 outperforms PS3 in several areas, such as available RAM, fillrate, and bandwidth. It's a marketing myth that PS3 was far more powerful. It's price was due to using exotic rather than standardized parts.

If MS came out this year with a $500 Scarlet, Sony would just come out with a more powerful $500 PS5 next year, and from then on Scarlet would be crushed.

No, because if Sony can make a more powerful $500 console a year later, then Microsoft could just drop the price on theirs.  Then it would be a $400(ish) console vs. a $500 console that plays the same games.  The $400 console would crush the $500 one.  (At least in English speaking countries, which is where Microsoft actually has an appeal.)

Let me put it this way.  There are a lot of people out there who think Lamborghini makes really cool cars.  They are far, far cooler than any Toyota out there.  But if Lamborghini is so cool, then why doesn't everyone have one?  Lamborghini costs too much.  All of that power seems like an advantage, but it really is a disadvantage, because it drives up the price.  Lots of people buy sensible (lame) Toyotas instead, because that is what they can afford.  There are probably even some Lamborghini owners out there who can't imagine why anyone would ever get a Toyota.  And yet those lame-ass Toyotas are always going to sell a lot more than the super-cool Lamborghinis, because the Toyotas cost less.

Consoles work the same way.  Powerful consoles seem cool, but they are really putting themselves at a disadvantage.  Most people just want the cheaper console even if it is less powerful.  Also people like a console with more games on it.  So if a console launches a year earlier, then it has an extra year to build up a game library.  This is exactly what happened with the XBox360.  It had a year head start on games and it cost less than the PS3.  The XBox360 totally crushed the PS3 is the US and UK.  Extra power does not really help, because it drives up the price.

You're overestimating the importance of price. If MS dropped the price of Scarlet, most people would still choose PS5. MS have tried selling the Xbox One for less than PS4, and consumers still choose the PS4.



The_Liquid_Laser said:
curl-6 said:

Not true; PS3 really wasn't that much more powerful than the 360, it was even weaker in some ways. It was expensive cos it used a ridiculous over-engineered custom chipset and a Blu-Ray player.

PS4 was cheaper than the Xbone yet it was more powerful. PS5 could exceed Scarlet's power at the same price launching a year later.

PS3 was more powerful than the 360.  I am including the Blu-Ray drive in that, since a Blu-Ray disc has significantly more capacity than a XB360 disc.  Overall the specs on the PS3 were clearly better (disc drive, clock speed, hard drive, etc...), but that drove up the price.

PS4 also proves my point, because the PS4 launched at a cheaper price and it trounced on the XB1.  Price matters a lot.  Price matters so much that it also makes power a disadvantage.  All other things being equal the weaker console has an advantage over a more powerful one.  Of course an expensive peripheral like Kinect can totally destroy that advantage, but that doesn't change the fact that having the weaker console is an advantage.  This is especially true when comparing Sony and Microsoft consoles, because they get mostly the same games.  In the end a lot of people just buy the cheaper console, and the easiest way to be cheaper is to be weaker.

The PS4 doesn't prove your point, though.  There is much more to it than A console is cheaper than B console, so A will win.  Take the Dreamcast, for instance.  When the PS2 launched, Sega dropped the price of the Dreamcast so that it was $150 cheaper than the PS2.  So, why didn't it just completely trounce the PS2 like your theory says it should, since it was weaker AND cheaper?  Because the PS2 was seen as the better product, both in power and game releases.  It also helped that PS now had some brand loyalty.

This is what happened with the PS4 and XBO, as well.  Even if they launched at the same price, the XBO had bad PR prelaunch, some they were able to dispel before launch.  They also could not change the fact that the PS4 was more powerful than them.  Even if they launched the XBO for $50 cheaper than the PS4, that gap would not have been enough for people not to buy the more powerful system with the greater game output and better performing multiplats.  Like before, it also helps that the PS brand loyalty is now in full swing.

Looking at brand loyalty, it's easy to see that the Xbox has very little chance of winning a gen, unless Sony fucks up royally ($200 price gap and highly custom chipset, resulting in inferior multiplats), which I highly doubt they will.  The XBox's big disadvantage is that it does better in a region with very little of it.  In Japan, the PS is always going to sell millions more than the Xbox.  In EU, the PS is always going to sell tens of millions more than the Xbox.  In the US, however, it's a toss up.  This region has gone back and almost every gen, with PS and Nintendo being one of the few repeats.  With PS5 being B/C and them most likely launching at the same price, I think next gen will most likely play out just like this one.

Another thing to consider is that HW sales are very important for Sony, where Xbox is shifting to be a service.  MS isn't going to be willing to take the same loss on HW that Sony will.  We could see a more powerful PS5, which rumors are circling that that is the case, but they launch for the exact same price.

Last edited by thismeintiel - on 21 July 2019

RolStoppable said:
curl-6 said:

You're overestimating the importance of price. If MS dropped the price of Scarlet, most people would still choose PS5. MS have tried selling the Xbox One for less than PS4, and consumers still choose the PS4.

What he says is mostly right because it can be demonstrated how much more price matters.

Your counter-argument comes with the problem that the Xbox One had built a very negative perception of itself before its price dropped below the PS4. It's not as simple as "lower price always wins", but price is a more important factor than power.

When you compare the sales of the PS4 with the PS4 Pro, the majority of consumers has opted for the standard PS4 since the launch of the Pro despite only a $100 difference. The power gap between the PS4 and Pro is larger than the power gap you would expect between a 2019 Scarlett and 2020 PS5, so the argument that a one year headstart would be beneficial for Microsoft holds water. By the time the PS5 launches, Microsoft could undercut Sony's console price and the market would choose Xbox, provided it isn't inherently biased against Xbox. So the USA and the UK would go to Microsoft, the rest of the world would still pick Sony despite the price difference.

This is purely hypothetical though, because Microsoft slept through too much of the PS4 generation, so a 2019 launch wasn't even feasible. You would want games to go along with the launch of a new console, but Microsoft's first party strategy has been ill-advised for too long to prepare properly for the launch of a new console. At best they could put out something like the 360 which stumbles through its first year (360 gained a headstart of only ~5.5m units on the PS3), and then hope that Sony is overconfident in the PS5 to gain more traction. Although it needs to be said that this time around Sony wouldn't need to commit PS3-level blunders, because nowadays it's established that the vast majority of games come to both PS and Xbox whereas at the time of the 360 Sony still held a tremendous advantage in exclusive third party games.

Explain the Dreamcast, which was $150 cheaper than the PS2 when the latter launched.  There's a lot more to it than just price.

Your PS4 Pro example isn't a very good one, either.  The PS4 Pro isn't a new competing console, it's within the same family of PS4 consoles.  It has a much smaller market to sell to.  It has to sell to people willing to pay $399 not just for a console, but an upgraded version of a console they may already have, the OG version still being able to play everything the Pro can at $299 and below.  That means people who wait for a consoles to hit $199/$299 before buying have no interest in the Pro until it hits those prices, and by then they may not feel the need to upgrade.  Again, poor comparison.

It doesn't really matter if Scarlett can cut price against the PS5.  If the PS5 is seen as the better value, because of power, games output and/or brand loyalty, like the PS2 was against the Dreamcast, people will buy the PS5.  And yes, it would take Sony making PS3 level blunders for MS to gain traction.  That gap between the amount of quality releases on XBO and PS4 has been reestablished this gen.  There's a reason a basically $199 ($230 with game/s) XBO is losing to a $299 PS4.