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Locked: What is Gender?

Forums - Politics Discussion - What is Gender?

Shiken said:

The answer is that it is a birth defect.  It really is that simple.  As with any birth defect, special circumstances exist.  That does not change the fact that gender is determined by what you were born with.

And yet... They still don't fall into your binary gender definitions. So what do you call them?

Shiken said:

If someone was born with both a penis and a vagina, it does change their gender.  Due to the birth defect, other things will need to be looked at on a biological level to determine which of the two genders they really are.  Estrogen levels vs testosterone as one example.  However that is an entirely different subject all together.  The point is that just because there is a birth defect and other things need to be looked at to determine their gender, that does not mean that there are more than two genders.

The fact that it's a deviation from the normal binary "norm" in regards to gender is the entire point I am trying to make, that there is in-fact more than two genders... The amount of people that sit outside your pigeon hole definitions is entirely a redundant point, just one person who isn't conforming to your gender definitions is enough to break down your position.

Once you start talking hormones (Esterogen/Testosterone) or Chromosomes, then the puddle becomes even more muddy, there are men with high levels of natural Estrogen with female chromosomes, yet male appearance and reproductive organs.

Sometimes they have a complete male appearance, high levels of estrogen, female chromosomes and female reproductive organs.

It's not all black and white.

At the end of the day, you can only assume gender by ones outward appearance, you aren't going to know what reproductive organs they posses, you will not know their estrogen/testosterone levels, you will not know their chromosomes... Nor are you entitled to that information anyway.
So you might as well call an individual by what they appear to be and stop making a big production about it all.



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Gender is socially constructed and because of this gender roles and perception of gender are different in every society and can even change in a society over time. Like how we see certain things, like colors (in America), as gender specific when in reality they're gender neutral. Pink is feminine and blue is masculine in modern America, though that was not always the case and even now that view is changing again.

Gender is based off of our perception of biological sex in regards to femininity/masculinity and what it means to be fem/masc (the roles, behavior, etc.) in the society in which one lives in. Gender expression is the outward manifestation of one's self and can align with the societal norm and expectations of sex and gender (cisgender individuals) or it doesn't align (transgender, agender, gender fluid individuals, etc.).

I left out some details but that's the gist of it. Whatever gender someone identifies as and how they express it should be respected.



 

It's another word for biological sex.

I'm sorry if this offends some people here, but you have to draw the line somewhere. Science exists for a reason and you need to respect biology. I'm sorry but chromosomes are real. The biological sex of a human is real. Otherwise it's just theory, science denial, and made up bs.

Women = xx chromosomes, men = xy chromisomes. Period. 

And this is absolutely no disrespect for trans people. I love trans people and don't discredit them at all, I know there's a legitimate psychological trait that makes them trans, and I also realize they go through a lot of shit and I totally respect that.

But straight up men or women who simply identify as the other gender with zero surgery, hormones, etc.. Why are we giving credence to this? If I identify as an alien, am I an alien? What's so wrong about simply stating you're a man with feminine qualities, or a woman with masculine qualities? At what point does this all break down and just become shit we made up? And if we're going to start splitting hairs this much, why have categories at all? Why not just say every single person is a unique gender? To me it's pretty much either all or nothing. And you have to have a foundational basis in these categories otherwise everything just breaks down, blends into eachother, and you have nothing.

I truly apologize if I offended anyone but I swear it comes from a good place and that these are my sincere, honest thoughts on the matter.



DarthMetalliCube said:

It's another word for biological sex.

I'm sorry if this offends some people here, but you have to draw the line somewhere. Science exists for a reason and you need to respect biology. I'm sorry but chromosomes are real. The biological sex of a human is real. Otherwise it's just theory, science denial, and made up bs.

Women = xx chromosomes, men = xy chromisomes. Period. 

And this is absolutely no disrespect for trans people. I love trans people and don't discredit them at all, I know there's a legitimate psychological trait that makes them trans, and I also realize they go through a lot of shit and I totally respect that.

But straight up men or women who simply identify as the other gender with zero surgery, hormones, etc.. Why are we giving credence to this? If I identify as an alien, am I an alien? What's so wrong about simply stating you're a man with feminine qualities, or a woman with masculine qualities? At what point does this all break down and just become shit we made up? And if we're going to start splitting hairs this much, why have categories at all? Why not just say every single person is a unique gender? To me it's pretty much either all or nothing. And you have to have a foundational basis in these categories otherwise everything just breaks down, blends into eachother, and you have nothing.

I truly apologize if I offended anyone but I swear it comes from a good place and that these are my sincere, honest thoughts on the matter.

So the guys for example that are born with ovaries (in addition to the normal parts), what are they?

Some are saying birth defects, but if we go by science XX and XY,  where do these kinds of people fit in? Are they simple an XX or XY with a defect, or is there some sort of mutation with the chromosomes?



 

 

Now this is a thread. I wanted to make one like this for quite a while.

As you have pointed out already there isn't a single thing attributed to each gender that is unique to a certain sex. It's a meaningless categorization and it has long outlived its welcome. I reject the notion of transgender because you cannot transition between something that doesn't exist. People build their stupidly rigidly defined categorizations and then whine about not fitting in them. Well, here's the truth, not fitting in is normal and it's the responsibility of the person to deal with it. I don't care if you want to change your sexuality or your appearance, but don't force me to put any importance on your own conceived arbitrary categorization.

Gender has become something that's akin to a religion, where we have to respect whatever crazy thing people who have subscribed to said religion believe. I treat any person with respect if that respect is reciprocal. I don't care about your appearance or your preferences but when you start forcing me to behave in some way that's uncalled for I'm gonna get pissed and I'm already pretty pissed about this new religion. You're not a woman or a man or gender fluid. You're a genderless blob to me. You're defined by what you do.

The world needs to become genderless and the sooner that happens the better. But looking at the "progress" we made with other religions I'm not holding my breath.

Caitlyn Jenner is not a hero. Jesus is not a hero. They're both humans.

Last edited by vivster - on 03 June 2019

If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

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Jaicee said:

I think we can all figure out what chromosomes are, and therefore what biological sex is (at least in essence), but what the hell is gender? I ask because the term gender is today used more often than sex to describe whether one is male, female, "or something else", and yet seems to possess no clear and objective definition that I can observe. Gender identity is being increasingly defined by such things as, for example...

...one's manner of speech,
...one's manner of dress,
...the way one carries themself,
...one's preferred hobbies and interests.

These things seem like stereotypes to me. In reality, we are each individual in the above ways.

I guess my question here is whether the extent to which one's attitude and lifestyle conforms to stereotypes about one or the other sex is really a sound basis on which to categorize them as male, female, "or something else"? What do you think? Can't one simply be a gender-nonconforming woman or man or does one's list of hobbies or dress style instead define whether they're male or female?

I believe Dr John Money helped coin the term 'Gender Identity' as something different from bioligical sex back in the 1960s. He was so convinced of his theory that he transitioned a little boy (after convincing the parents it was a good idea) from a boy to a girl (David Reimer) because his penis was destroyed by a controversial circumcision technique. The boy refused to conform to his dictated gender identity and attempted to transition back to a man as a teenager. Him and his brother Brian both committed suicide since.

I consider Dr John Money an evil man and the term 'Gender Identity' is part of his legacy. Until that time, gender was used to describe 'feminine' or 'masculine' objects in various European languages.

In short: it's a made up term invented in the last few decades and has (in my estimation) led to more harm than good.  



Cobretti2 said:
DarthMetalliCube said:

It's another word for biological sex.

I'm sorry if this offends some people here, but you have to draw the line somewhere. Science exists for a reason and you need to respect biology. I'm sorry but chromosomes are real. The biological sex of a human is real. Otherwise it's just theory, science denial, and made up bs.

Women = xx chromosomes, men = xy chromisomes. Period. 

And this is absolutely no disrespect for trans people. I love trans people and don't discredit them at all, I know there's a legitimate psychological trait that makes them trans, and I also realize they go through a lot of shit and I totally respect that.

But straight up men or women who simply identify as the other gender with zero surgery, hormones, etc.. Why are we giving credence to this? If I identify as an alien, am I an alien? What's so wrong about simply stating you're a man with feminine qualities, or a woman with masculine qualities? At what point does this all break down and just become shit we made up? And if we're going to start splitting hairs this much, why have categories at all? Why not just say every single person is a unique gender? To me it's pretty much either all or nothing. And you have to have a foundational basis in these categories otherwise everything just breaks down, blends into eachother, and you have nothing.

I truly apologize if I offended anyone but I swear it comes from a good place and that these are my sincere, honest thoughts on the matter.

So the guys for example that are born with ovaries (in addition to the normal parts), what are they?

Some are saying birth defects, but if we go by science XX and XY,  where do these kinds of people fit in? Are they simple an XX or XY with a defect, or is there some sort of mutation with the chromosomes?

Guys with ovaries? Is that really a thing? Excuse my naivety but I've legitimately never heard of such a case.. 

I mean you said it yourself. It's a guy. A guy that has ovaries. But ultimately, can said guy give birth? Then I suppose you'd call said guy a woman. Not a guy...

I suppose you'd call them mutations. And I don't mean that in any negative sense. But a mutation is a mutation. 

I don't see how this is a legitimate argument to claim that somehow the man = man and woman = woman argument is invalid.

There IS such a thing as biological sex and I'm legitimately scratching my head as to why some seem to think this basic biological/scientific truth should be invalidated.

Or am I missing something? Am I the crazy one? I guess I just don't get what we're trying to do here. 

I'm certainly not down with tearing people down if they want to identify as a woman or whatever. The problem is when you start to deny science, you start to regress as a society, NOT progress. And you ultimately hurt people and society as a whole rather than help them. An example is that you now have trans and men identifying as women and destroying women in female sports. So women are now basically screwed at winning at their own sports because men can now identify as women. Should that be fair to biological women? 

If we're talking about changing the definition of the word GENDER specifically and separating it from biological sex than I'm open to discussion about that I suppose, but that's a different topic. 

I'm not trying to sound like a smart ass but I'm legitimately confused as to what some are trying to argue here. You have men, and you have women. And you have trans men. And you have trans women. End of story. Or am I missing something..?



DarthMetalliCube said:

It's another word for biological sex.

I'm sorry if this offends some people here, but you have to draw the line somewhere. Science exists for a reason and you need to respect biology. I'm sorry but chromosomes are real. The biological sex of a human is real. Otherwise it's just theory, science denial, and made up bs.

Women = xx chromosomes, men = xy chromisomes. Period. 

And this is absolutely no disrespect for trans people. I love trans people and don't discredit them at all, I know there's a legitimate psychological trait that makes them trans, and I also realize they go through a lot of shit and I totally respect that.

But straight up men or women who simply identify as the other gender with zero surgery, hormones, etc.. Why are we giving credence to this? If I identify as an alien, am I an alien? What's so wrong about simply stating you're a man with feminine qualities, or a woman with masculine qualities? At what point does this all break down and just become shit we made up? And if we're going to start splitting hairs this much, why have categories at all? Why not just say every single person is a unique gender? To me it's pretty much either all or nothing. And you have to have a foundational basis in these categories otherwise everything just breaks down, blends into eachother, and you have nothing.

I truly apologize if I offended anyone but I swear it comes from a good place and that these are my sincere, honest thoughts on the matter.

If you are going to adhere to the principles of science, then you need to recognize that some women have xy chromosomes, some men have xx chromosomes... And some people can have variants of even those with xxy chromsomes (Klinefelter Syndrome.) or xyy chromsomes.

Which means your binary stance starts to break down at a scientific level.

But you are entirely right, at the end of the day we need to adhere to science, that goes for those who support and go against the idea of more than 2 genders.

DarthMetalliCube said:

Guys with ovaries? Is that really a thing? Excuse my naivety but I've legitimately never heard of such a case.. 

I mean you said it yourself. It's a guy. A guy that has ovaries. But ultimately, can said guy give birth? Then I suppose you'd call said guy a woman. Not a guy...

Yes. Some men are born with ovaries.
No, that doesn't mean they can give birth.

Some also have a penises in conjunction with the ovaries.

It's an extremely complex topic at any rate... Generally those individuals are called "Intersex" or "Chimera".



It trips me out when one person says they were born X, feel Y, have a sexual interest in W and other people try to tell them they don't or can't because it bothers their binary ideals.

Person A: Biologists and psychologists say there are at least 6 sexes and more than 30 genders.
Person B: They are wrong because I only want 2 for each because reasons.



Massimus - "Trump already has democrat support."

the-pi-guy said:

If I may ask, am I someone whom this is being directed at? Have I said something here that potentially breaks the forum rules? I mean I've certainly not tried to make this subject any more personal than it is by definition. What am I doing wrong?

PM sent ~ CGI

Last edited by CGI-Quality - on 04 June 2019