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Locked: What is Gender?

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RaptorChrist said:
All of the recent gender debates really bother me for some reason. It almost seems like in recent years if a man wants to be a woman or vice versa, they can just say that that's what they are, and everyone is expected to address them as such. It's kind of selfish, and it seems like an excuse to start an argument.

I don't think you have to believe everything people are saying. I handle it this way, If someone is brave enough to dress like a woman in public he deserves to be called what ever the hell he wants.



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o_O.Q said:

"No one has said that gender is derived from clothing. "

*looks a couple pages back*

"

so for you clothes determine who is man and who is woman? would that be a fair conclusion?

Most transgender persons I've seen or met dress very cliche masculin or cliche feminine, so yes this rule of thumb will probably cover 90%."

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9017717

i could look through other thread i've participated in and bring up even more if you want

Do you seriously not understand the difference between these two statements?

>Most transgender persons I've seen or met dress very cliche masculin or cliche feminine, so yes this rule of thumb will probably cover 90%.

>gender is derived from clothing

Can you read this and understand it: "rule of thumb will probably cover 90%"?
He's saying that transgender men tend to wear typical masculine clothes, and transgender women tend to wear typical feminine clothes.    

He is not saying that someone is a women because they wear female clothes.  

o_O.Q said:

"If you go by chromosomes: you run into 2 difficulties..."

exceptions exist with any practical category, the same will occur with whatever redefinition of gender you believe in

"However you biologically define gender, you at minimum need to accept that scientifically there are at least 3 genders."

men, women and what else? how would you define this third gender?

"That's a fact you keep ignoring or dismissing."

because its not a fact, having a very small penis, or a very large clit or being a hermaphrodite does not make someone a third gender

but lets say that i'm wrong, how would you define this third gender?

What do you think people who are transgender are?  They are exceptions, they are not the norm.  

@bold has nothing to do with anything I've said.

What gender would you say a hermaphrodite is?  Male?  Female?  Both?  Neither?

o_O.Q said:

"You keep trying to bring up the species argument,"

i never at any point talked about species? 

So you are aware if a unicorn existed, it would be another species.  

So yes, you were talking about fictional species.  

o_O.Q said:

"but how do you think society would care?  Suppose that someone out there really wanted to be a unicorn, what does it matter?  How do you think that would affect society?"

i have no problem with people pretending to be what they want to be, i've always said that, my problem is when other people are expected or forced to abide by their delusions

the same way that i don't think christians should be able to impose their religious doctrine on people despite me also thinking that they should be free to practice them

regardless of that what's wrong with someone such as myself raising these issues to seek clarification? i never expected to see someone the justifications i've seen in these discussions and i've learned a lot, that wouldn't have happened if i'd just kept my mouth shut

People are only expected to respect someone else.  

If someone is named Jonathon and they ask if you could call them Jon, there's nothing unreasonable about calling them Jon.  It's the same thing.

>regardless of that what's wrong with someone such as myself raising these issues to seek clarification?

There's nothing wrong with asking questions to seek clarification.  Asking questions that make light of issues that are serious to some people on the other hand...  

o_O.Q said:

"people have to respect what other people are called (holy cow, just like it is right now!")

if you are referring to pronouns, people assess which pronouns apply to people they interact with on a subconscious level... because we identify who is male and female (through obvious biological characteristics) on a subconscious level 

the proposal here is that despite all of this a person should just fight themselves internally to submit to this ideology and i would think that in a free society we wouldn't be going down this route

What?  You identify who people are, subconsciously?  

why should they have to? in the process lying to themselves internally?

Because people deserve respect.  People that are transgender are not trying to lie to themselves.

They often have irregularities such as

-Brain structures

-Hormones

that cause them to think they are the opposite gender.  

Treatments are difficult.  One that is successful for some people is transitioning, which requires others to respect their transition.

o_O.Q said:

"If someone wanted to be called a unicorn and yet they still act like a regular person.  I don't consider that an issue. It doesn't change anything."

i wouldn't care as i've said, again i asked seeking clarification because again obviously if physical characteristics don't matter and its about what is in the mind then why couldn't someone identify as a unicorn?

They probably could.  

But there isn't likely a unicorn brain, like there are with male/female brains.  

same here as long as i don't have to entertain their bullshit and i don't have more laws and restrictions placed on my freedom then have at it

@bold:People aren't choosing to be transgender.  

The reason why some are trying to make laws is because there are others also making laws and restrictions to be placed on someone else's freedom.  

What laws are being made to restrict your freedom?  

How do they compare to the laws that are being made to restrict this fellow into using the female bathroom?



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Torillian said:
Azuren said:
Gender is one of a few things, depending on which definition you want to use.

Yes, there are multiple definitions. Yes, one of them refers to social norms and conventions. But yes, one of them also explicitly refers to sexes. Literally everyone in this thread is correct except for the fact that they can't agree on which definition we're talking about.

I actually don't think the last sentence is accurate. What I see is one group that agrees there are multiple definitions depending on context while another stalwartly tries to say that gender has forever and only ever will refer to sexes. 

Really? I mostly see three groups. One the understands it's a nuanced word with multiple meanings, and two that yell about how it's biological or societal.



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the-pi-guy said:
o_O.Q said:

"No one has said that gender is derived from clothing. "

*looks a couple pages back*

"

Most transgender persons I've seen or met dress very cliche masculin or cliche feminine, so yes this rule of thumb will probably cover 90%."

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9017717

i could look through other thread i've participated in and bring up even more if you want

Do you seriously not understand the difference between these two statements?

>Most transgender persons I've seen or met dress very cliche masculin or cliche feminine, so yes this rule of thumb will probably cover 90%.

>gender is derived from clothing

Can you read this and understand it: "rule of thumb will probably cover 90%"?
He's saying that transgender men tend to wear typical masculine clothes, and transgender women tend to wear typical feminine clothes.    

He is not saying that someone is a women because they wear female clothes.  

o_O.Q said:

"If you go by chromosomes: you run into 2 difficulties..."

exceptions exist with any practical category, the same will occur with whatever redefinition of gender you believe in

"However you biologically define gender, you at minimum need to accept that scientifically there are at least 3 genders."

men, women and what else? how would you define this third gender?

"That's a fact you keep ignoring or dismissing."

because its not a fact, having a very small penis, or a very large clit or being a hermaphrodite does not make someone a third gender

but lets say that i'm wrong, how would you define this third gender?

What do you think people who are transgender are?  They are exceptions, they are not the norm.  

@bold has nothing to do with anything I've said.

What gender would you say a hermaphrodite is?  Male?  Female?  Both?  Neither?

o_O.Q said:

"You keep trying to bring up the species argument,"

i never at any point talked about species? 

So you are aware if a unicorn existed, it would be another species.  

So yes, you were talking about fictional species.  

o_O.Q said:

"but how do you think society would care?  Suppose that someone out there really wanted to be a unicorn, what does it matter?  How do you think that would affect society?"

i have no problem with people pretending to be what they want to be, i've always said that, my problem is when other people are expected or forced to abide by their delusions

the same way that i don't think christians should be able to impose their religious doctrine on people despite me also thinking that they should be free to practice them

regardless of that what's wrong with someone such as myself raising these issues to seek clarification? i never expected to see someone the justifications i've seen in these discussions and i've learned a lot, that wouldn't have happened if i'd just kept my mouth shut

People are only expected to respect someone else.  

If someone is named Jonathon and they ask if you could call them Jon, there's nothing unreasonable about calling them Jon.  It's the same thing.

>regardless of that what's wrong with someone such as myself raising these issues to seek clarification?

There's nothing wrong with asking questions to seek clarification.  Asking questions that make light of issues that are serious to some people on the other hand...  

o_O.Q said:

"people have to respect what other people are called (holy cow, just like it is right now!")

if you are referring to pronouns, people assess which pronouns apply to people they interact with on a subconscious level... because we identify who is male and female (through obvious biological characteristics) on a subconscious level 

the proposal here is that despite all of this a person should just fight themselves internally to submit to this ideology and i would think that in a free society we wouldn't be going down this route

What?  You identify who people are, subconsciously?  

why should they have to? in the process lying to themselves internally?

Because people deserve respect.  People that are transgender are not trying to lie to themselves.

They often have irregularities such as

-Brain structures

-Hormones

that cause them to think they are the opposite gender.  

Treatments are difficult.  One that is successful for some people is transitioning, which requires others to respect their transition.

o_O.Q said:

"If someone wanted to be called a unicorn and yet they still act like a regular person.  I don't consider that an issue. It doesn't change anything."

i wouldn't care as i've said, again i asked seeking clarification because again obviously if physical characteristics don't matter and its about what is in the mind then why couldn't someone identify as a unicorn?

They probably could.  

But there isn't likely a unicorn brain, like there are with male/female brains.  

same here as long as i don't have to entertain their bullshit and i don't have more laws and restrictions placed on my freedom then have at it

@bold:People aren't choosing to be transgender.  

The reason why some are trying to make laws is because there are others also making laws and restrictions to be placed on someone else's freedom.  

What laws are being made to restrict your freedom?  

How do they compare to the laws that are being made to restrict this fellow into using the female bathroom?

Honestly, the most unsettling aspect of that last picture is the fact that he's intentionally trying to take pictures that include other people in the bathroom, not that it's a FTM being forced to used the ladies room (which, let's be real, he's very fucking passable and wouldn't turn a single head if he walked into the men's room. I forsee very few regulations preventing him from using the restroom he wants, short of a fucking genital check before entering).



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the-pi-guy said:
o_O.Q said:

"No one has said that gender is derived from clothing. "

*looks a couple pages back*

"

Most transgender persons I've seen or met dress very cliche masculin or cliche feminine, so yes this rule of thumb will probably cover 90%."

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9017717

i could look through other thread i've participated in and bring up even more if you want

Do you seriously not understand the difference between these two statements?

>Most transgender persons I've seen or met dress very cliche masculin or cliche feminine, so yes this rule of thumb will probably cover 90%.

>gender is derived from clothing

Can you read this and understand it: "rule of thumb will probably cover 90%"?
He's saying that transgender men tend to wear typical masculine clothes, and transgender women tend to wear typical feminine clothes.    

He is not saying that someone is a women because they wear female clothes.  

o_O.Q said:

"If you go by chromosomes: you run into 2 difficulties..."

exceptions exist with any practical category, the same will occur with whatever redefinition of gender you believe in

"However you biologically define gender, you at minimum need to accept that scientifically there are at least 3 genders."

men, women and what else? how would you define this third gender?

"That's a fact you keep ignoring or dismissing."

because its not a fact, having a very small penis, or a very large clit or being a hermaphrodite does not make someone a third gender

but lets say that i'm wrong, how would you define this third gender?

What do you think people who are transgender are?  They are exceptions, they are not the norm.  

@bold has nothing to do with anything I've said.

What gender would you say a hermaphrodite is?  Male?  Female?  Both?  Neither?

o_O.Q said:

"You keep trying to bring up the species argument,"

i never at any point talked about species? 

So you are aware if a unicorn existed, it would be another species.  

So yes, you were talking about fictional species.  

o_O.Q said:

"but how do you think society would care?  Suppose that someone out there really wanted to be a unicorn, what does it matter?  How do you think that would affect society?"

i have no problem with people pretending to be what they want to be, i've always said that, my problem is when other people are expected or forced to abide by their delusions

the same way that i don't think christians should be able to impose their religious doctrine on people despite me also thinking that they should be free to practice them

regardless of that what's wrong with someone such as myself raising these issues to seek clarification? i never expected to see someone the justifications i've seen in these discussions and i've learned a lot, that wouldn't have happened if i'd just kept my mouth shut

People are only expected to respect someone else.  

If someone is named Jonathon and they ask if you could call them Jon, there's nothing unreasonable about calling them Jon.  It's the same thing.

>regardless of that what's wrong with someone such as myself raising these issues to seek clarification?

There's nothing wrong with asking questions to seek clarification.  Asking questions that make light of issues that are serious to some people on the other hand...  

o_O.Q said:

"people have to respect what other people are called (holy cow, just like it is right now!")

if you are referring to pronouns, people assess which pronouns apply to people they interact with on a subconscious level... because we identify who is male and female (through obvious biological characteristics) on a subconscious level 

the proposal here is that despite all of this a person should just fight themselves internally to submit to this ideology and i would think that in a free society we wouldn't be going down this route

What?  You identify who people are, subconsciously?  

why should they have to? in the process lying to themselves internally?

Because people deserve respect.  People that are transgender are not trying to lie to themselves.

They often have irregularities such as

-Brain structures

-Hormones

that cause them to think they are the opposite gender.  

Treatments are difficult.  One that is successful for some people is transitioning, which requires others to respect their transition.

o_O.Q said:

"If someone wanted to be called a unicorn and yet they still act like a regular person.  I don't consider that an issue. It doesn't change anything."

i wouldn't care as i've said, again i asked seeking clarification because again obviously if physical characteristics don't matter and its about what is in the mind then why couldn't someone identify as a unicorn?

They probably could.  

But there isn't likely a unicorn brain, like there are with male/female brains.  

same here as long as i don't have to entertain their bullshit and i don't have more laws and restrictions placed on my freedom then have at it

@bold:People aren't choosing to be transgender.  

The reason why some are trying to make laws is because there are others also making laws and restrictions to be placed on someone else's freedom.  

What laws are being made to restrict your freedom?  

How do they compare to the laws that are being made to restrict this fellow into using the female bathroom?

"

the-pi-guy said:
o_O.Q said:

"No one has said that gender is derived from clothing. "

*looks a couple pages back*

"

Most transgender persons I've seen or met dress very cliche masculin or cliche feminine, so yes this rule of thumb will probably cover 90%."

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9017717

i could look through other thread i've participated in and bring up even more if you want

Do you seriously not understand the difference between these two statements?

>Most transgender persons I've seen or met dress very cliche masculin or cliche feminine, so yes this rule of thumb will probably cover 90%.

>gender is derived from clothing"

his answer in response to me asking how he differentiates between men and women was to talk about clothing

what about you? how do you differentiate between men and women?

"What do you think people who are transgender are?  They are exceptions"

yes exactly to a category

just like how people with 8 limbs are an exception to the classification of humans as having 4 limbs

"What gender would you say a hermaphrodite is?"

an exception since no classification is 100 percent perfect... not even yours if you can actually define a new one

"So you are aware if a unicorn existed, it would be another species.  

So yes, you were talking about fictional species."

i'm talking about gender identity not physical reality... the exact same thing you are doing to have me accept the bullshit that because a man wears a dress that this makes him a woman

that's all in their head right? so why can't the same occur with the unicorn identity?

"If someone is named Jonathon and they ask if you could call them Jon, there's nothing unreasonable about calling them Jon.  It's the same thing."

names and pronouns are completely different, one differentiates individuals and the other differentiates between men and women

"What?  You identify who people are, subconsciously?  "

everyone does, most of our perception in case you did not know occurs subconsciously through techniques like pattern recognition


"Asking questions that make light of issues that are serious to some people on the other hand...  "

like what? the unicorn question? can you not see that if you claim that its all in someone's head that it then becomes reasonable that someone can identify as anything?

i posted a link of someone identifying as a cat, why is that wrong from your perspective? 

"Because people deserve respect."

this is a dubious claim

i don't respect white supremacists, i do not respect incels, i do not respect communists etc etc etc... i think all of these groups are mentally ill and unworthy of respect

"People that are transgender are not trying to lie to themselves"

what about those who detransition and regret their transition?

"They often have irregularities such as

-Brain structures

-Hormones"

from what i've seen more research has to be done on this with regards to brain structure because there's a lot of research that's pointing the other claiming that men and women are equal since their brains are relatively similar

with regards to hormones how could that be the case when the main component of transitioning is hormone therapy?

"But there isn't likely a unicorn brain, like there are with male/female brains.  "

so its brain structure that determines gender and brain structure is binary? if that's the case why have you argued for acknowledgement of at least 3 genders?

"People aren't choosing to be transgender."

they are choosing to identify as something other than what their appearance indicates them to be, is that better?

"What laws are being made to restrict your freedom?  "

it was a hypothetical

"How do they compare to the laws that are being made to restrict this fellow into using the female bathroom?"

what does that person identify as?



o_O.Q said:

"And I have no idea what you're trying to say in your last paragraph."

ok lets take incels as an example, they feel for various reasons like all women are "whores" and as a result they have great disdain for women

but to reasonable people this is not reality we understand that they have warped perceptions and as a result their emotions do not reflect material reality

the fact that someone feels a certain way does not have any bearing on what reality actually is, its wholly irrelevant to this discussion

Good night, everybody.  We've come to the point that even the word 'feel' has been twisted in this debate.

When I said, "Gender identity is the psychological gender that they feel", I mean it as a subconscious function of the psyche.

When you say, "incels feel...like all women are whores."  You are referring to a conscious belief, a presumption, conjecture, supposition....

I'm done.



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RaptorChrist said:
All of the recent gender debates really bother me for some reason. It almost seems like in recent years if a man wants to be a woman or vice versa, they can just say that that's what they are, and everyone is expected to address them as such. It's kind of selfish, and it seems like an excuse to start an argument.

It only starts an argument if you want to argue with them.  They know how they feel better than I do.  If they want to be addressed by a different pronoun, it in no way diminishes my life to oblige them, so why the fuck not. 



SpokenTruth said:
o_O.Q said:

"And I have no idea what you're trying to say in your last paragraph."

ok lets take incels as an example, they feel for various reasons like all women are "whores" and as a result they have great disdain for women

but to reasonable people this is not reality we understand that they have warped perceptions and as a result their emotions do not reflect material reality

the fact that someone feels a certain way does not have any bearing on what reality actually is, its wholly irrelevant to this discussion

Good night, everybody.  We've come to the point that even the word 'feel' has been twisted in this debate.

When I said, "Gender identity is the psychological gender that they feel", I mean it as a subconscious function of the psyche.

When you say, "incels feel...like all women are whores."  You are referring to a conscious belief, a presumption, conjecture, supposition....

I'm done.

"

Gender identity is the psychological gender that they feel", I mean it as a subconscious function of the psyche."

and what about those who detransition and regret their transition? if its a subconscious operation that's embedded in them why are some wrong about their transition? 

furthermore if its a social construct as you have been arguing then it can't really be an embedded subconscious operation can it? because it should be in flux depending on the social pressures the person is experiencing

for clarification are you claiming this "subconscious function of the psyche" is an aspect that is there from birth and is innate and unchanging? or is it a social construct that the person develops through interacting with their environment?

"When you say, "incels feel...like all women are whores.""

its a social construct, they come to perceive reality that way because of social pressures that mould their minds leading them to a certain conclusion

and if you were actually consistent you would acknowledge that you've said the same about gender before(well you've said that its a social construct but you may disagree with how i've defined it)

"I'm done."

i would've been done when people started implying that clothing determines gender but its morbid curiosity that is driving me, i seriously want to see if i'm missing something here and this really isn't as stupid as i think it is

when the other guy from earlier in the thread criticised me for calling unicorn a gender but then basically said that gender could be infinite i had to come back and seek clarification on that because i don't understand how someone can seriously hold both beliefs in their head at the same time



vivster said:

I use the current interpretation that divorces gender from biological sex. Biological differences exist and should be respected, but they don't define you.

A woman is nothing more than a human that has certain biological characteristics and certain needs. Those needs are different from other humans, but they are in no way more or less important. The thing here is that humans are extremely diverse. There is no point in arbitrarily drawing a line between two groups if the biological differences within 1 group are as big as the differences between the groups. There are women that look and act like men and vice versa, so why even divide the groups then?

There are special needs people who have to regularly go to special physicians to get themselves checked for their own biological issues. Be it a woman going to a gynecologist or a wheelchair bound person going to the orthopedist. I don't think we'll have to assign a gender to differently abled people just because they're physically different, so why would we do that to biological sexes?

Genders are a social construct, created from the human need to categorize everything. From the earliest societies women were labeled the weaker gender, partly because of necessity and partly because male power fantasies. But that isn't really a natural state or a default state seeing how there have been matriarchal societies since the beginning of time. Biological sexes looked differently so of course they have to be separated. Animals and humans are wired to form groups and see members outside our group with skepticism. These things can be overcome however. Humans are intelligent enough to see past difference. We did it with races and we can do it with gender as well.

If we look at infants we can see universal acceptance and respect of all genders and races, which means they're only later indoctrinated. This indoctrination is not malicious in most cases but it's just very stupid and causes more problems than it's trying to fix. It all starts with gendered clothing, colors and even toys. One of the most egregious things are gendered bathrooms. Children are taught to keep to their own gender. Having homogeneous gendered groups in childhood and especially youth creates a very toxic circlejerk within these groups who will then define the other group and creating a false picture, further dividing them. At the end of adolescence all the damage is done.

To change people's perception of gender we need to start in the early childhood. The current generation is already lost but change can come in the future. At some point people have to stop caring about genders. Sadly we're currently going in the opposite direction. Ironically it's fueled by people who fight for gender equality. We're currently regressing in our acceptance of genders and races because people put emphasis on things that should not be emphasized.

I think I made my point here. Now I'm trying to think of a way to fix the issue with gendered changing rooms.

The situation isn't necessarily as hopeless as it may at first appear. It really depends on the extent to which a given country's feminist movement is influenced by the American women's movement because it's the American women's movement from whence intersectionality theory derives; intersectionality theory being the glue that connects feminist politics to queer theory in the contemporary imagination. In Spain, for example, the women's movement is more powerful and led instead by the lesbian feminists, as you can tell by their slogans and choices of imagery and attire (e.g. only lesbian feminists use the term "hetero-patriarchy" and the March 8th Movement organizers march in lesbian pride purple emblazoned with the second wave woman power symbol) and the March 8th Movement is having a real impact and influence across Europe. Likewise, , South Korea's Ditch the Corset movement is significantly influenced by the literature of lesbian feminist scholar, author, and activist Dr. Sheila Jeffreys.

Radical feminists, including the lesbians, are also a major faction of the movement in the United Kingdom, where there never really was a proper "third wave" or "fourth wave" like happened here in the U.S., and, unlike here in the U.S., over there they lead the movement against transgender politics. I think that helps because many if not most people who embrace transgenderism wind up doing so by way of introduction thereto by the intersectional feminists today. If feminist politics form a path in, they can therefore also form a path out for many of the same people. It's probably no coincidence that many ideas of the transgender movement are highly unpopular in the UK at present. (For example, a recent survey of Scottish women found that 79% want to retain single-sex facilities ranging from restrooms to locker rooms and sports teams.)