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Forums - General Discussion - GoT season 8 final episode 6 tonight. (spoiler discussion) Fin. The end... for ever. D&D can burn in the seven hells.

 

I'm...

Hyped. 24 55.81%
 
Mildly interested. 11 25.58%
 
Not bothered. 5 11.63%
 
/indifferent/not watched/other in comments. 3 6.98%
 
Total:43
DonFerrari on 16 May 2019
colafitte said:
DonFerrari said:

Problem with this argument is that basically all the starks suffered much more than this and wouldn't do what she done.

Jon was killed by his comrades in the night watch.

Sansa have already been summarized here.

Bran was tossed from a tower for seeing incest and inherited the memories of the world and all treason there.

Arya would be the one that was least betrayed and who would guess is the most vengeful one.

None of them have dragons. I'm pretty sure Sansa and Arya, at some point in her stories would liked burn KL to the ground too. Nobody has the power Dany has in this story, so no one can be compared to her.

You can guess Jon and Bran wouldn't do it, in any cirucumstances, but the rest of the Starks.....mmm.

Besides all of this, Dany has the arrogant gen of the Targaryen. She sees herself as a superior being to others. She was stolen of her birthright. She has grown living with resentment. Daenerys has been shown multiples times not differentiating fairly who are true enemies or not. Like when she considered Ned Stark as guilty as Robert Baratheon for assassinating her family, something that Jorah had to convince her was not fair because Ned would have never killed a baby, and that he wasn't even in KL at the moment. 

Daenerys has barely shown mercy against her enemies throughout the story. It was just that until now, Daenerys' enemies and the audience enemies were the same. It's more a problem of hipocresy of the audience than anything else. We like to critizise and judge others severely because we like to be right until another one does the same against us. That's why is so dangerous a leader/revolutionist character like Daenerys.

In the end she decided Cersei, KL population and anyone not supporting her are going to be her enemies. If you are not with me, you are against me. Not middle terms. Absolutism mentality.

Yes maybe Sansa or Arya would, never seem signs showing that they would though.

And as said by several people here there is a difference between she being in her dragon and let's say they kill her best friend and at that moment she snaps and makes something she regrets later and having suffered before the battle, winning and then snapping.

Also you replied yourself, she is the crazy one, with arrogant, self-serving, self-important, unforgivable attitude. Arya and Sansa were able to "forgive" or at least tolerate Jaime and Imp after what happened to their family. Jaime was very much part of the murdering of their father, mother and brother. The girls wanted to "burn" KL metaphorically, not kill all the citizens.

I do agree with you that since the beginning it was show that she wasn't mentally sound and fair as the starks. She have been ruthless, egoistical, power hungry, cruel and much more since the beginning. She just happen to be anti-slavery and feminist so she was applauded for what she did so far before this battle.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

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colafitte on 16 May 2019
Faelco said:

Yes, the books might end the same way, and that's not the issue here.

If you add an entire season showing a progression to the Mad Queen, it can be good. You could even do the same type of scenario, but with one factor making her snap. An example would be to kill her second dragon during the attack instead of during the previous episode. Make them kill Rhaegal just before the bells, and I would understand if she snaps and doesn't let them surrender. But the way they did it, it makes no sense. Even with some foreshadowing, you need one push to make her become mad. There was no push during the battle, she became mad alone on her dragon because of bells. Ridiculous.

I agree the problem is the pace. Too sudden. But i must say that the snap did not happened just with the bells. Were happening multiple times in the last episodes. Jorah's death, Rhaegal's death, Missandei's death, Jon, Varys, Tyrion treasons. She was deranged and lonely just before the attack. When the moment happens, she just left her more primal emotions get the best of her. 

By the time the battle ended, what she was thinking was everything that she endured to get to this point. Everything she lost because of doing what others said her to do. She came to the conclusion that she is the queen, that she is the one who see what really needs to be done. She knew (from her point of view) that she needed fear to reign here, because trying the people to love her only served to bring death to her most loved ones. And hatred is not the same as fear. If you feel hate, you are not feeling true fear. When you're absolutely scared you don't allow yourself to feel hate. You become completely impotent. That's what she is trying to do to Westeros. That's the Targaryen mentality. 

This video is a good montage of Daenerys dark side since the beginning of the series until the end.



Machiavellian on 16 May 2019
colafitte said:
Faelco said:

Except that KL population is her population, her citizens. She considers herself as the Queen, and Cersei is just an usurper. So, those people are her subjects. She is fighting to free her subject from an usurper and get her throne back. It makes absolutely no sense to kill her subjects, even more before attacking the usurper. Or worse, ignoring the usurper to just focus on killing her population.

And the population is with no one, they will just follow whoever is king/queen. The only way for the population to not accept the new queen is if she starts to kill people blindly. Like she did. It's just a stupid writing made to make her hated and accelerate her obvious murder in the last episode. Lazy writing for hollywoodian "plot twist".

Before that, she also had Dorne, Highgarden and the Iron Island following her (and the North and Vale through Sansa and Jon). It's dead now, no one will follow her anymore (or only publicly). People don't understand that you don't reign with fear like that. This action did not create fear, it created hatred. Huge difference between respecting and fearing your queen (when she kills people who oppose her), and hating her (when she kills everyone blindly). That's the difference that will lead to her death, for no reason.

And she will say that she did it for the people of KL. For the "future generations" like she said before the attack.

And the population being with no one maybe it doesn't matter to you, but it definitively matters to Daenerys. That's what Tyrion was trying to tell her all this time, but in Daenerys mind, If the people don't fight against Cersei with her, then are part of the problem too. She literally says in the last ep when Tyrion tells her that the people don't care "it is my fault??" You have to take into consideration that she is sending a message, not only to KL's people, but all Westeros. Deny my right to be queen and you will burn too. This is necessary because I AM NECESSARY. Everyone fighting against me, or not alongside me, is fighting against the future of the 7 seven kingdoms. That's her mindset.

Look, i don't support how the tv show has done Daenerys recent arc at all. I do feel too, that everything was too rushed. But the hints are there, and it's probably how the books are going to end too.

Isn't this a reflection on current society.  Have we not killed innocents trying to get the so called villain.  Someone terrorist is another person's freedom fighter.  How many times has we seen people be ok with collateral damage.  I would say that Martin has done an excellent job of duping his audience.  He has shone many times Dany's nature but people were ok with it because as one person put it, it was against bad people.  People wanted Cersei to pay they wanted her to burn I do not know why they believe Martin would give it to them the way they envisioned.  It was evident that he was always moving the story this way where you have a teenage kid with anger issues and repeatable nukes under their control.  It was always going to end bad.



DonFerrari on 16 May 2019
Hiku said:
DonFerrari said:

I don't remember she paying anything to the soldiers after she bought them and supposedly freed them. So they are basically modern slaves working for the food.

Don't know if she pays them money. Maybe? But they chose to work for her.

DonFerrari said:

Problem is that she didn't. The unsullied died by dozen without doing a dent on the whitewalker, she couldn't destroy the king of the night with the fire and then was cowering with the advisor fighting for her. Arya almost alone saved the earth.

Well what the show writers wants us to believe is that Dany "didn't need to fight this war", and came her and sacrificed a lot so that they could win thanks to her army.

We all know she kinda just made it worse by handing a dragon over to the Night King, and all it took to take him out was someone who could pass through solid objects, and doesn't leave a single sound when she moves, but we don't talk about that.

People also chose to work for food in Brazil in some parts of the North and in confection factories in São Paulo. That still is called modern slavery and frowned upon.

on the second reply. Basically the writers fucked up and we agree the battle was ludicrous. But on the going to help but making things worse at least that is very common in the series. Same way people expect the book to end with all magic being over, so all targaryen and descendent of valyrians dead, the children of the night and the wall gone, the whitewalker no more... and the world basically becoming what would be a middle age europe.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

chakkra on 16 May 2019

colafitte said:
Faelco said:

Yes, the books might end the same way, and that's not the issue here.

If you add an entire season showing a progression to the Mad Queen, it can be good. You could even do the same type of scenario, but with one factor making her snap. An example would be to kill her second dragon during the attack instead of during the previous episode. Make them kill Rhaegal just before the bells, and I would understand if she snaps and doesn't let them surrender. But the way they did it, it makes no sense. Even with some foreshadowing, you need one push to make her become mad. There was no push during the battle, she became mad alone on her dragon because of bells. Ridiculous.

I agree the problem is the pace. Too sudden. But i must say that the snap did not happened just with the bells. Were happening multiple times in the last episodes. Jorah's death, Rhaegal's death, Missandei's death, Jon, Varys, Tyrion treasons. She was deranged and lonely just before the attack. When the moment happens, she just left her more primal emotions get the best of her. 

By the time the battle ended, what she was thinking was everything that she endured to get to this point. Everything she lost because of doing what others said her to do. She came to the conclusion that she is the queen, that she is the one who see what really needs to be done. She knew (from her point of view) that she needed fear to reign here, because trying the people to love her only served to bring death to her most loved ones. And hatred is not the same as fear. If you feel hate, you are not feeling true fear. When you're absolutely scared you don't allow yourself to feel hate. You become completely impotent. That's what she is trying to do to Westeros. That's the Targaryen mentality. 

How in God's name did you get to that conclusion!??

Humans tend to hate what they fear. That has been scientifically proven over and over. If you are scared of spiders, snakes, rats, cuckcroaches etc, etc, you automatically want to see them dead. That's just..  human nature.

And yes, most tyrants that have ruled through fear in human history have been murdered in the end.



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Machiavellian on 16 May 2019
chakkra said:

colafitte said:

I agree the problem is the pace. Too sudden. But i must say that the snap did not happened just with the bells. Were happening multiple times in the last episodes. Jorah's death, Rhaegal's death, Missandei's death, Jon, Varys, Tyrion treasons. She was deranged and lonely just before the attack. When the moment happens, she just left her more primal emotions get the best of her. 

By the time the battle ended, what she was thinking was everything that she endured to get to this point. Everything she lost because of doing what others said her to do. She came to the conclusion that she is the queen, that she is the one who see what really needs to be done. She knew (from her point of view) that she needed fear to reign here, because trying the people to love her only served to bring death to her most loved ones. And hatred is not the same as fear. If you feel hate, you are not feeling true fear. When you're absolutely scared you don't allow yourself to feel hate. You become completely impotent. That's what she is trying to do to Westeros. That's the Targaryen mentality. 

How in God's name did you get to that conclusion!??

Humans tend to hate what they fear. That has been scientifically proven over and over. If you are scared of spiders, snakes, rats, cuckcroaches etc, etc, you automatically want to see them dead. That's just..  human nature.

And yes, most tyrants that have ruled through fear in human history have been murdered in the end.

There are a lot of tyrants who live a very long life.  Do not be surprise if no one actually takes Danny out and she ascend the throne killing everyone in her way including the ones she care about which we have already seen.



DonFerrari on 17 May 2019
Hiku said:
DonFerrari said:

People also chose to work for food in Brazil in some parts of the North and in confection factories in São Paulo. That still is called modern slavery and frowned upon.

on the second reply. Basically the writers fucked up and we agree the battle was ludicrous. But on the going to help but making things worse at least that is very common in the series. Same way people expect the book to end with all magic being over, so all targaryen and descendent of valyrians dead, the children of the night and the wall gone, the whitewalker no more... and the world basically becoming what would be a middle age europe.

Yeah, I think her definition of slave is just being forced into labour. Only working for food and lodging doesn't sound good.

The Unsullied go to bars and brothels though, so they do have money that comes from somewhere at least. Not sure how exactly they receive that money.

I haven't heard that theory before. But I hope there's something interesting involving Bran's abilities, the Nightwalkers and the Prince that was Promised prophecy. Though at this pace, the books will come out right after Final Fantasy 7 Remake in 2045.

Yep if they are on middle age setting most people would be ok with working for food and lodging.

Think about like in LotR, magic fading little by little from the world as humans take over and the other sentient creatures leave/die.

Most people don't believe the night walkers, old religion, etc. So with the end of the night king, targaryen, valyrians and Bran basically most of the magic will be gone and become stuff from legends in couple generations.

chakkra said:

colafitte said:

I agree the problem is the pace. Too sudden. But i must say that the snap did not happened just with the bells. Were happening multiple times in the last episodes. Jorah's death, Rhaegal's death, Missandei's death, Jon, Varys, Tyrion treasons. She was deranged and lonely just before the attack. When the moment happens, she just left her more primal emotions get the best of her. 

By the time the battle ended, what she was thinking was everything that she endured to get to this point. Everything she lost because of doing what others said her to do. She came to the conclusion that she is the queen, that she is the one who see what really needs to be done. She knew (from her point of view) that she needed fear to reign here, because trying the people to love her only served to bring death to her most loved ones. And hatred is not the same as fear. If you feel hate, you are not feeling true fear. When you're absolutely scared you don't allow yourself to feel hate. You become completely impotent. That's what she is trying to do to Westeros. That's the Targaryen mentality. 

How in God's name did you get to that conclusion!??

Humans tend to hate what they fear. That has been scientifically proven over and over. If you are scared of spiders, snakes, rats, cuckcroaches etc, etc, you automatically want to see them dead. That's just..  human nature.

And yes, most tyrants that have ruled through fear in human history have been murdered in the end.

There is a difference between fearing someone because he is to powerful and if you disobey the law you may be dead and fearing someone because he kills innocent people randomly. On the first one you may think that as long as you behave you are ok, on the second there is no option. So it is quite easy to see why the first may work but the second won't.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Faelco on 17 May 2019
Machiavellian said:
chakkra said:

How in God's name did you get to that conclusion!??

Humans tend to hate what they fear. That has been scientifically proven over and over. If you are scared of spiders, snakes, rats, cuckcroaches etc, etc, you automatically want to see them dead. That's just..  human nature.

And yes, most tyrants that have ruled through fear in human history have been murdered in the end.

There are a lot of tyrants who live a very long life.  Do not be surprise if no one actually takes Danny out and she ascend the throne killing everyone in her way including the ones she care about which we have already seen.

Do you know a lot of tyrants who killed randomly thousands of people in their capital, just like that? I don't. Because usually even tyrants are not stupid enough for that. Killing people who oppose you, sure, killing citizens of other countries, no issue, but butchering thousands of your own innocent people, there is absolutely no point and almost no one would do that. Even Stalin and Hitler killed people for a "reason", and people were led to believe that they would be OK as long as they were not part of the targets, and didn't do anything to become one. Daenerys just killed people for nothing, so nobody is safe, so nobody can be "fine" with her as a ruler.

The last king in Westeros who tried to do something like that got killed by his own kingsguard before doing it. Dany will finish the same, but it's too late...



KiigelHeart on 17 May 2019

Yes it's true not a single ruler used dragons to kill thousands of civilians. Totally relevant to this piece of fiction.

I'm looking forward to finale without setting much expectations. We've yet to see how mad Dany actually is. Whether she's completely gone, feeling her actions were justifiee or just an emotionally driven mistake/decicion. She did just used her dragon to completely wreck King's Landingin, a city that's never been burned down before and destroyed Golden Company with one breath. Not a single king or ruler of Westeros is dumb enough to rise up to her now. So exciting!

Last edited by KiigelHeart - on 17 May 2019

TruckOSaurus on 17 May 2019
KiigelHeart said:
Yes it's true not a single ruler used dragons to kill thousands of civilians. Totally relevant to this piece of fiction.

I'm looking forward to finale without setting much expectations. We've yet to see how mad Dany actually is. Whether she's completely gone, feeling her actions were justifiee or just an emotionally driven mistake/decicion. She did just used her dragon to completely wreck King's Landingin, a city that's never been burned down before and destroyed Golden Company with one breath. Not a single king or ruler of Westeros is dumb enough to rise up to her now. So exciting!

Maybe she'll use the same defense as Bill in Kill Bill:



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