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Should US companies be able to fire/layoff US citizens to hire a cheaper employee through H-1B visa ?

Forums - Politics Discussion - Should US companies be able to fire/layoff US citizens to hire a cheaper employee through H-1B visa ?

Should US tech companies be able to fire/layoff US citizens to hire cheaper employees?

Yes 10 31.25%
 
No 19 59.38%
 
Maybe 3 9.38%
 
Total:32
Bofferbrauer2 said:
MrWayne said:

I heavily disagree with you last sentence. In 2018 roughly every fourth refugee worked in a "sozialversicherungspflichtigen"(social insurance requiring?) job which means the refugees a probably a net loss for the german state, I would go even further and say the the overall contribution of the refugees to the german economy is very little because the money the german state spends on refugees could be used a lot more efficiently if invested differently.

But all those things I stated above aren't that dramatic because we speak about refugees, they're here because they aren't safe in their own country and not because they contribute so much to the german economy.

Asylum is a terrible tool to combat the lack of skilled workforce and it was never intended to be one,  it's heavily beneficial for criminal structures and refugees have a huge initial cost before they can contribute to the economy.

What we should do instead is a) make a immigration law ,similar to those in Canada and the US, for skilled workers from non EU countries who can immediately partake in the german job market. b) We have to be more welcoming to those immigrants, I recently read about a Study who asked immigrants in different countries about their work and life and those in germany said the the working conditions are very good but they don't feel particualary welcomed in germany.
c) germany has on of the lowest fertility rate world wide, we have to make germany more family friendly. Financial security is very important if you plan to become a baby so we need harder restrictions for time employment and a better security net if you fall out of employment,  The possibility to work only 90% or 80% if you have little kids, etc

@bolded: You got a link for that?

Also, I said immigrants, not refugees. Though of course tons of these came with the immigrants during the heights of the Syrian, Irak and Lybian wars.

a) Germany already has this

b) I think that's true more or less for every country, especially on first contact with foreigners. Best advice would be imo to get those people of different culture to interact with each other to destroy the fears and prejudices on both sides.

c) Which is also one of the reasons why there are shortages in manufacturing jobs. In fact, the politicians are trying for decades to get German families to have more kids, why do you think they are pushing the KITAs so hard for instance? It's because they can't go out and say "fuck more, you're dying out! And without children we can't guarantee the pensions anymore."; that would be political suicide. So they're trying to incentivise the families to have more children, with Kitas (so they don't have to take care of them all the time), Familiengeld, and so on. Problem is that it's not really working. Germans (and much of eastern Europe) seem to become more and more DINKs

https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/fluechtling-arbeitsmarkt-103.html

I thought you were talking about those people who came in 2015/2016 during the refugee crisis since you mentioned Merkel and her decision. Obviously not all of them got the refugee status in germany but all of them were asylum seekers.

a) So far there were only a immigration system for non EU academics but very recently a new immigration law was passed, i haven't looked into it but maybe our government already solved that problem.

b)But Germany does significantly worse than other countries

https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/studie-auslaendische-fachkraefte-finden-deutsche-oft.680.de.html?dram:article_id=427415

c) I know that they already tried many different things but as you said, they dont work all that well but it's also not a lost case, look at France, they have a  fertility rate of 2.0.



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Once American's realize that they serve money over all, I think they will willfully accept being outsourced.
If my investors want to make more money and American's are costing too much money I will replace them.
They don't mind. In fact, they endorse and would gleefully accept anything harmful to them if it makes someone richer.
I also taught them that knowing things is evil. They can't imagine a world where people were motivated by something besides money alone.

In all seriousness, If people don't give up on putting money before themselves, they are doomed already. Money as a medium of trade is sufficient, but its existence doesn't circumvent the existence of real people. It is an intangible concept (most of the time) that has zero worth outside of our perception.



Bofferbrauer2 said:

Driving wages up isn't the problem. And guess what: they continue to go up fast even with immigrants filling up spots.

The problem is that there aren't nearly enough candidates to fill the spots, which results in net productivity losses for the companies, especially smaller ones who can't afford such fancy ways to woo the staff they desperately need.

You can always get enough candidates to fill the slots in anything.  You telling me that if they paid everyone $12 billion a day, they couldn't attract the candidates?

Obviously not.  So the problem becomes a market issue.  Obviously, wages haven't risen fast enough so that the market equalizes.



NightlyPoe said:
Bofferbrauer2 said:

Driving wages up isn't the problem. And guess what: they continue to go up fast even with immigrants filling up spots.

The problem is that there aren't nearly enough candidates to fill the spots, which results in net productivity losses for the companies, especially smaller ones who can't afford such fancy ways to woo the staff they desperately need.

You can always get enough candidates to fill the slots in anything.  You telling me that if they paid everyone $12 billion a day, they couldn't attract the candidates?

Obviously not.  So the problem becomes a market issue.  Obviously, wages haven't risen fast enough so that the market equalizes.

An electrician makes about 5000€ a month by now due to the shortages even though 10 years ago he would only have been around 2000-2500€. If that's not fast enough I don't know what will. There are jobs with University degree requirement that pay much less than that.

@bolded: Name me one company who could even afford such a ridiculous wage. If they needed that much then we wouldn't be having electronics anymore as every company would go out of their way to do without as much as possible



Bofferbrauer2 said:
NightlyPoe said:

You can always get enough candidates to fill the slots in anything.  You telling me that if they paid everyone $12 billion a day, they couldn't attract the candidates?

Obviously not.  So the problem becomes a market issue.  Obviously, wages haven't risen fast enough so that the market equalizes.

An electrician makes about 5000€ a month by now due to the shortages even though 10 years ago he would only have been around 2000-2500€. If that's not fast enough I don't know what will. There are jobs with University degree requirement that pay much less than that.

@bolded: Name me one company who could even afford such a ridiculous wage. If they needed that much then we wouldn't be having electronics anymore as every company would go out of their way to do without as much as possible

You knew what the point he was making was. If employers are struggling to find work, then they should offer a better wage. Not complain that your job with low pay and incredibly high requirements can't be filled by an American. Working at a company where I could hire/fire IT techs, some of the competitors have some absurd listings with the sole purpose of being able to get cheaper labor via H-1B visas.



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outlawauron said:
Bofferbrauer2 said:

An electrician makes about 5000€ a month by now due to the shortages even though 10 years ago he would only have been around 2000-2500€. If that's not fast enough I don't know what will. There are jobs with University degree requirement that pay much less than that.

@bolded: Name me one company who could even afford such a ridiculous wage. If they needed that much then we wouldn't be having electronics anymore as every company would go out of their way to do without as much as possible

You knew what the point he was making was. If employers are struggling to find work, then they should offer a better wage. Not complain that your job with low pay and incredibly high requirements can't be filled by an American. Working at a company where I could hire/fire IT techs, some of the competitors have some absurd listings with the sole purpose of being able to get cheaper labor via H-1B visas.

We're talking about Germany here in this case. There the employers basically doubled the wages, but they still can't find enough workers, simply because manual jobs became out of fashion and everybody wants an university/college degree, making them unfit and unskilled for those kinds of work. And in that case, immigration softened the blow. 

 

As for about the US, my answer is much higher above. If they can't find suitable workers (which, at 4% unemployment can happen in more niche professions that rarely anybody chooses as a career), then they should be able to hire somebody through an immigration Visa. Firing somebody firsthand just to free up a spot for those should not be possible, but for that to be possible you can blame US worker protection laws (or their lack thereof). Firing employees should only be possible for very valid reasons (like theft at the workplace, for instance).

Also, while I agree that they can hire somebody from abroad, I want to stress that I'm staunchly against wage dumping, meaning that if they hire somebody from abroad that person should be paid the same as somebody from that respective country (in this case the US) would earn.



Bofferbrauer2 said:
NightlyPoe said:

You can always get enough candidates to fill the slots in anything.  You telling me that if they paid everyone $12 billion a day, they couldn't attract the candidates?

Obviously not.  So the problem becomes a market issue.  Obviously, wages haven't risen fast enough so that the market equalizes.

An electrician makes about 5000€ a month by now due to the shortages even though 10 years ago he would only have been around 2000-2500€. If that's not fast enough I don't know what will. There are jobs with University degree requirement that pay much less than that.

Obviously more than 5000€ a month currently.  Is it surprising that university degree requiring jobs make less than technical jobs sometimes?  Why would it?  University degrees grow on trees.

You get people to think that technical jobs pay as much or more than university jobs, and people will gravitate towards those fields.  In time the market will saturate, and the wages will fall.  That's just how it works.

@bolded: Name me one company who could even afford such a ridiculous wage. If they needed that much then we wouldn't be having electronics anymore as every company would go out of their way to do without as much as possible

Do I have to explain the concept of a reductio ad absurdum at this time of night?



NightlyPoe said:
Bofferbrauer2 said:

An electrician makes about 5000€ a month by now due to the shortages even though 10 years ago he would only have been around 2000-2500€. If that's not fast enough I don't know what will. There are jobs with University degree requirement that pay much less than that.

Obviously more than 5000€ a month currently.  Is it surprising that university degree requiring jobs make less than technical jobs sometimes?  Why would it?  University degrees grow on trees.

You get people to think that technical jobs pay as much or more than university jobs, and people will gravitate towards those fields.  In time the market will saturate, and the wages will fall.  That's just how it works.

@bolded: Name me one company who could even afford such a ridiculous wage. If they needed that much then we wouldn't be having electronics anymore as every company would go out of their way to do without as much as possible

Do I have to explain the concept of a reductio ad absurdum at this time of night?

@bolded: No need, but you posted that with a straight face as if you didn't mean that sarcastically. I was hoping you mean is like that, but wasn't sure.

It's not as surprising to me, but guess why so many want a degree like that? Because the belief is that jobs which open up with an University degree pay better than manual works, and they did so for ages - because only a select few managed to get such a degree. But like you said, University and College degrees got devaluated so much and so many got them by now that there are too many with such a diploma at hand but not enough jobs who need them. On the other side the manual jobs which got defected over the years now pay better and better, but it's still common knowledge that you need a college/University degree to get a good job. Si until that mentality changes the wages in manual jobs will continue to rise, at worst until steched beyond their economic feasibility at which point the companies would look for potential alternatives that wouldn't need those specialized workers anymore.



Yes. Companies should be able to layoff employees and hire cheaper ones, they need to keep costs low for shareholders.

You need to be indispensable to the company you work for, that comes with hard work... If you can be replaced by a cheaper worker who is just as good, then you probably aren't really entitled to your position in my eyes.



Pemalite said:
Yes. Companies should be able to layoff employees and hire cheaper ones, they need to keep costs low for shareholders.

You need to be indispensable to the company you work for, that comes with hard work... If you can be replaced by a cheaper worker who is just as good, then you probably aren't really entitled to your position in my eyes.

So say you work for a company for 20 years, and they decide to replace you with a lower waged foreigner, you somehow didn't deserve the job you dedicated 20 years of your life doing?? Meanwhile you have a mortgage, kid's tuition, medical insurance etc?