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Forums - General Discussion - Do you believe in God? Why/Why not?

 

Do you believe in any god?

Yes 63 36.21%
 
No 111 63.79%
 
Total:174
SpokenTruth said:
Snoopy said:

Yes, but how many of those planets have resources that can sustain life? Not many and not to mention there has to be life itself as well. I never said there isn't alien life, but it didn't just appear by chance which is the point you are missing. Also, each solar system is like one lotto ticket for a separate game since each one is completely different and has it own rules so to speak in some regards. 

The bottom line:  You can't actually believe the universe without a consciousness can create everything we have today by chance. Most of the things we enjoy today (technology, buildings/infastructue,most of our food/resource, etc) were made by someone with consciousness. Earth itself is much more complex and advanced than all of the items I mentioned. There is no way it could be created by chance.

I already gave you the numbers.  Trillions exist with the characteristics needed to create and sustain life.  Trillions.  I don't think you understand the scope of the universe.  Nor are you understanding how long 13.8 billion years is.  That means that trillions of planets have already come and gone.  Not just the trillions that currently exist.

Yes, a nice huge number, but isnt saying much, appearing as murky as the rest of the equation. The parts we know, and what we dont know. And what we figured out so far tells us higher lifeforms are not as common as the myriads of stars and planets suggests.

 

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18734-why-complex-life-probably-evolved-only-once/



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Zoombael said:
SpokenTruth said:

I already gave you the numbers.  Trillions exist with the characteristics needed to create and sustain life.  Trillions.  I don't think you understand the scope of the universe.  Nor are you understanding how long 13.8 billion years is.  That means that trillions of planets have already come and gone.  Not just the trillions that currently exist.

Yes, a nice huge number, but isnt saying much, appearing as murky as the rest of the equation. The parts we know, and what we dont know. And what we figured out so far tells us higher lifeforms are not as common as the myriads of stars and planets suggests.

 

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18734-why-complex-life-probably-evolved-only-once/

Complex life evolving from simple cells is an inevitability given the right circumstances and enough time. With trillions of planets multiplied by billions of years it's quite likely that complex life forms exist, even in this very galaxy. Not that we'll ever find out since even the confines of our own galaxy are too big to grasp for a human. And there are billions of galaxies out there.



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HollyGamer said:
drkohler said:

Did your god tell you that? Certainly it wasn't your science teacher.

I'm trying to get out of discussions with flat earthers/creatonists/etc but everything I read here boils down to the same old fruitless "I don't understand it hence it must be god".

Then tell me your " science " , can the science answer all . Even in front of the nature science cannot do anything. 

This is exactly the reason I try to stay out of such "discussions". It is the most used,  dumbest path Ken Ham's stayle creatonists usually take in a debate: "You can't explain everything - hence god did it". It simply shows the complete lack of understanding of how science works and, in a nutshell, what science actually is.

I'm out.



drkohler said:
HollyGamer said:

Then tell me your " science " , can the science answer all . Even in front of the nature science cannot do anything. 

This is exactly the reason I try to stay out of such "discussions". It is the most used,  dumbest path Ken Ham's stayle creatonists usually take in a debate: "You can't explain everything - hence god did it". It simply shows the complete lack of understanding of how science works and, in a nutshell, what science actually is.

I'm out.

And that's called an argument from ignorance ;)



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Snoopy said:

First of all, I never said I was part of a religion because I'm agnostic. Second of all, I am a believer of natural selection, but a circumstance where species can still be here and thrive over the years is extremely lucky. Yes, I will continue to use the word luck because the littlest shit that goes wrong can cause us to not exist. Ever heard of the butterfly effect. And no, if the earth was pulled close to the sun or if there wasn't any fresh water, we would be fucked.  One small change can drastically change the future. Finally, saying there is a creator doesn't mean we ignore science. The United States arguably contributed to science more than any country and we are mostly a Christian nation. Don't let a few clowns make you feel otherwise.

Here is an interesting video I suggest you watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FvYwpyFbIQ. This will discuss the Aristotelian proof of God among other evidence. 

This video is really bad. I'm not surprised to have never heard of this guy. Some associate professor of philo from Podunk University.

I didn't like his presentations in the video so I sought out his actual manifestations for these arguments in propositional format. Unfortunately, nobody seems to have cited his arguments so I can't find them unless I buy his books. (LOL)

From what I gathered, he is merely presenting the standard cosmological argument. (and hates when it's presented as a strawman, so I'll do my best)

1. Anything which comes into existence has a cause for its existence. (WLC has a similar premise - Anything which begins to exist has a cause)

2. The Universe came into existence.

3. Therefore the Universe has a cause for its existence.

Another formulation might be in the form of contingency but I think this is sufficient.

Something to consider is that even if I grant the argument without objection, we only conclude that there is a cause for the existence of the Universe. We don't get to God created the Universe.

While I would agree with premise 1, I would not agree with premise 2. And I see absolutely no evidence to support premise 2. 

The Universe has always existed in the sense that it has existed since the dawn of time. There is no time t in which the Universe did not exist, which is to say that it was always existed. To suggest otherwise is, I would declare, irredeemably asinine. 

There are much better theologians than this guy...you should probably read more.



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I have not yet found a convincing counter-argument against the Moral Argument as a proof of God's existence. Granted, I admit I have my own bias since I'm a Christian. We have our own biases anyway but I'm open to hear some different opinions. How would Atheists in this forum counter the moral argument. And please, don't misrepresent the moral argument. I'm not saying that Atheists can not be moral. anyway, below is the argument:

Basically, the argument uses a deductive reasoning (no bible quotes needed)

Premise 1: If God does not exist, then objective moral values do not exist.
Premise 2: Objective moral values exist.
Conclusion: God exists.

The argument is a very simple one, and can be structured something like this:

1. For an objective moral standard to exist, God must exist
2. An objective moral standard does exist
3. Therefore, God exists

It can also be taken into negative form:

1. If God does not exist, objective moral values and duties do not exist
2. Objective moral values and duties do exist
3. Therefore God exists

If we are just in a materialistic reality wherein you are just a clump of atoms that will eventually die and will be rearranged in a different form, what is preventing you from killing everyone for your own benefit and enjoy life to the fullest while you are alive. It is a logical thing to do.

Well, if you counter this argument by saying that morality is subjective, this means that moral codes depends on one's own interpretation. This means that:

1. Nazi people are bad, or
2. Nazi people may think that they are morally right because they are just doing what is best for their own people.

So which is it? Are they bad or good? Where do you base your decision? We all know that they are bad but again, it begs the question. How can an atheist logically call something atrocious, deplorable, evil, or wicked? According to atheism, man is nothing but matter in motion. Humankind allegedly evolved from rocks and slime over billions of years. But who ever speaks of “wrong rocks,” “moral minerals,” “corrupt chemicals,” or “sinful slime?” People do not talk about morally depraved donkeys, evil elephants, or immoral monkeys. Pigs are not punished for being immoral when they eat their young.

Atheists cannot logically condemn the Nazis for objective moral evil, while simultaneously saying that we arose from rocks and rodents. They cannot reasonably rebuke a child molester for being immoral, while at the same time believing that we evolved from slime. Reason demands that objective good and evil can only exist if there is some real, objective reference point.

You see, confining yourself in just the physical reality of the universe requires you to reject metaphysical concepts such as morality in order to stay true to your argument.

I've watched multiple debates by Atheists, including Dawkins and Hitchens, but when this question is raised, they dodged it and misrepresent the argument. Pity, I actually like them because of their deep thoughts even though I disagree with them.

The fact that all humans agree on the concept of good and evil further justifies the bible's quote regarding God putting morality on our hearts, Romans 2:15. Because if we are just a natural and physical occurence, there is no right or wrong, there is only strong and weak.

They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them.

Romans 2:15

Last edited by Dota2Gamer - on 06 September 2018

SpokenTruth said:
Dota2Gamer said:

Basically, the argument uses a deductive reasoning (no bible quotes needed)

Premise 1: If God does not exist, then objective moral values do not exist.
Premise 2: Objective moral values exist.
Conclusion: God exists.


If we are just in a materialistic reality wherein you are just a clump of atoms that will eventually die and will be rearranged in a different form, what is preventing you from killing everyone for your own benefit and enjoy life to the fullest while you are alive. It is a logical thing to do.

1. Prove objective morals exist.

2. Killing everyone for personal gain is the logical thing to do?  Prove that too.


I felt somewhat cheated because I took an effort to lay down the moral arguments while I received an inquisitor question with no counter argument.

Very well then, I'll appropriate my response. To answer your question, watch this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tYm41hb48o 

 



Dota2Gamer said:

I have not yet found a convincing counter-argument against the Moral Argument as a proof of God's existence. Granted, I admit I have my own bias since I'm a Christian. We have our own biases anyway but I'm open to hear some different opinions. How would Atheists in this forum counter the moral argument. And please, don't misrepresent the moral argument. I'm not saying that Atheists can not be moral. anyway, below is the argument:

Basically, the argument uses a deductive reasoning (no bible quotes needed)

(1) Premise 1: If God does not exist, then objective moral values do not exist.
Premise 2: Objective moral values exist.
Conclusion: God exists.


The argument is a very simple one, and can be structured something like this:

1. For an objective moral standard to exist, God must exist
2. An objective moral standard does exist
3. Therefore, God exists

It can also be taken into negative form:

1. If God does not exist, objective moral values and duties do not exist
2. Objective moral values and duties do exist
3. Therefore God exists

(2)If we are just in a materialistic reality wherein you are just a clump of atoms that will eventually die and will be rearranged in a different form, what is preventing you from killing everyone for your own benefit and enjoy life to the fullest while you are alive. It is a logical thing to do.

(3)Well, if you counter this argument by saying that morality is subjective, this means that moral codes depends on one's own interpretation. This means that:

1. Nazi people are bad, or
2. Nazi people may think that they are morally right because they are just doing what is best for their own people.

(4)So which is it? Are they bad or good? Where do you base your decision? We all know that they are bad but again, it begs the question. How can an atheist logically call something atrocious, deplorable, evil, or wicked? According to atheism, man is nothing but matter in motion. Humankind allegedly evolved from rocks and slime over billions of years. But who ever speaks of “wrong rocks,” “moral minerals,” “corrupt chemicals,” or “sinful slime?” People do not talk about morally depraved donkeys, evil elephants, or immoral monkeys. Pigs are not punished for being immoral when they eat their young.

(5)Atheists cannot logically condemn the Nazis for objective moral evil, while simultaneously saying that we arose from rocks and rodents. They cannot reasonably rebuke a child molester for being immoral, while at the same time believing that we evolved from slime. Reason demands that objective good and evil can only exist if there is some real, objective reference point.

(6)You see, confining yourself in just the physical reality of the universe requires you to reject metaphysical concepts such as morality in order to stay true to your argument.

(7)I've watched multiple debates by Atheists, including Dawkins and Hitchens, but when this question is raised, they dodged it and misrepresent the argument. Pity, I actually like them because of their deep thoughts even though I disagree with them.

(8)The fact that all humans agree on the concept of good and evil further justifies the bible's quote regarding God putting morality on our hearts, Romans 2:15. Because if we are just a natural and physical occurence, there is no right or wrong, there is only strong and weak.

They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them.

Romans 2:15

(1) Do objective morals exist? There is no evidence that it does. Personally I don't believe in objective morality. You can have your premises, but there is no foundation for them. 

(2) That's correct. There are people out there who are indeed doing this, because there is no one, which they think, who can stop them. 

(3) And that's actually they case when you look at humanities past and present. Different cultures were created which different laws. How can that not be a part of subjective morality? 

(4) It's one of these, both and neither depending on how you look at it. There is no moral ground on where you stand.  Good and bad don't exist from a universal point of you. The universe doesn't care. Humans do. For some humans, Nazi's are consider bad and for others humans Nazi's are considered good. If humans would be objective moral and Nazism considered bad, there wouldn't be any Nazi's. If your counter-argument is, well, that's just wrong, than you committing an appeal to emotions which you actually do by your reasoning. 

(5) And that's also going in the direction of an appeal to emotions. I don't believe in objective morality, nor free will, so how do I solve this issue? I can't call them evil, nor immoral. But I can call them a threat to society in which I live in. In order to grow and live peacefully, I cannot permit such actions. So I will condemn them on this basis alone. 

(6) I don't see the problem by doing so. 

(7) Example? 

(8) You can't call that a fact if not all humans agree on it like you've already demonstrated in your own argument. You just shot your own argument.

 

Edit: Also, I see a far more bigger issues when Theists (Christians) argue for morality and their guiding book (Bible). It's really easy to throw the argument back at you. Just like that: 

Does it mean that if you stop believing in God and the Bible that you will go out and rape / abuse children and kill people? Because, what's stopping you if God is not real, right?

If I go by Wikipedia, there are about 500 million atheists on this planet. Why aren't they killing each other? They don't believe in any scripts. 

Last edited by Peh - on 06 September 2018

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Dota2Gamer said:

I have not yet found a convincing counter-argument against the Moral Argument as a proof of God's existence. Granted, I admit I have my own bias since I'm a Christian. We have our own biases anyway but I'm open to hear some different opinions. How would Atheists in this forum counter the moral argument. And please, don't misrepresent the moral argument. I'm not saying that Atheists can not be moral. anyway, below is the argument:

Basically, the argument uses a deductive reasoning (no bible quotes needed)

Premise 1: If God does not exist, then objective moral values do not exist.
Premise 2: Objective moral values exist.
Conclusion: God exists.

The argument is a very simple one, and can be structured something like this:

1. For an objective moral standard to exist, God must exist
2. An objective moral standard does exist
3. Therefore, God exists

It can also be taken into negative form:

1. If God does not exist, objective moral values and duties do not exist
2. Objective moral values and duties do exist
3. Therefore God exists

If we are just in a materialistic reality wherein you are just a clump of atoms that will eventually die and will be rearranged in a different form, what is preventing you from killing everyone for your own benefit and enjoy life to the fullest while you are alive. It is a logical thing to do.

Well, if you counter this argument by saying that morality is subjective, this means that moral codes depends on one's own interpretation. This means that:

1. Nazi people are bad, or
2. Nazi people may think that they are morally right because they are just doing what is best for their own people.

So which is it? Are they bad or good? Where do you base your decision? We all know that they are bad but again, it begs the question. How can an atheist logically call something atrocious, deplorable, evil, or wicked? According to atheism, man is nothing but matter in motion. Humankind allegedly evolved from rocks and slime over billions of years. But who ever speaks of “wrong rocks,” “moral minerals,” “corrupt chemicals,” or “sinful slime?” People do not talk about morally depraved donkeys, evil elephants, or immoral monkeys. Pigs are not punished for being immoral when they eat their young.

Atheists cannot logically condemn the Nazis for objective moral evil, while simultaneously saying that we arose from rocks and rodents. They cannot reasonably rebuke a child molester for being immoral, while at the same time believing that we evolved from slime. Reason demands that objective good and evil can only exist if there is some real, objective reference point.

You see, confining yourself in just the physical reality of the universe requires you to reject metaphysical concepts such as morality in order to stay true to your argument.

I've watched multiple debates by Atheists, including Dawkins and Hitchens, but when this question is raised, they dodged it and misrepresent the argument. Pity, I actually like them because of their deep thoughts even though I disagree with them.

The fact that all humans agree on the concept of good and evil further justifies the bible's quote regarding God putting morality on our hearts, Romans 2:15. Because if we are just a natural and physical occurence, there is no right or wrong, there is only strong and weak.

They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them.

Romans 2:15

There is a problem in looking for an argument against the moral argument.  Because that is again to shirk off the burden of proof.  The argument is not good unless it can be disproven.  It's not good until it has been proven.

Nevertheless, this is one of the weaker arguments with obvious flaws.

First off, you haven't defined what objective morality is.  So, depending on what you mean I may or may not agree with you that it exists.  But whether or not I agree with you, I can say with 100% confidence that you have not demonstrated it to exist.

Secondly, there is the Euthyphro dilemma which imo effectively counters this argument in the time of the ancient greeks.  To sum it up, quickly it poses this question.  Is something moral because god commands it, or does god command it because it's moral?

If something is moral because god demands it, then human morality is effectively negated.  It is not morality, it is obedient.  We are not doing what we think is right, we are just following orders.  And if you believe in the god of the Bible who allows slavery, slaughter of children and war criminals, taking females of a conquered nation to be sex slaves, orders the stoning of gay people,  and so on, it becomes more problematic.   

As far as a reference point, you're right.  We do need a reference point.  But a reference point is trivially easy to create.  We can use me as a reference point.  If we say that morality is whatever Justin says is right, then that would be sufficient grounds for objective morality.  And it would be a much better system because not only am I more moral than god (if you take the Bible to be literal) I'm also a much better communicator.  You'd never have to wonder what was moral, you'd just have to ask me! And I've been shown to exist, and I have drowned 0 babies (god has done a lot more).  I'm guessing you won't accept me as a moral authority, but then I'd ask why we should accept god (even if he does exist) as a moral authority.  

But assuming we don't want me as a standard (which maybe we should tbh) we can also use human well being as a standard.  We are a social species, and as such we have evolved to be empathetic, and to a degree cooperative.  To establish a society these are necessary traits.  So if we agree we want a society that helps humans flourish, then that could serve as a standard.  From there, we can pretty easily make moral assessments.  Buddha made a moral system superior to Christianity way before Jesus was supposedly born btw keeping this principle in mind.  

Ultimately, the argument appeals to our desire to make morality very simple.  But, morality is complicated.  And saying "well the big guy says so" doesn't really solve this problem.



Peh said:

(1) Do objective morals exist? There is no evidence that it does. Personally I don't believe in objective morality. You can have your premises, but there is no foundation for them. 

While I respect your belief, I believe that objective morality exists. While we have thousands of religions around the world, all of them have goals to follow certain rules in order to have peace and order. While they differ in execution, all of them have divine entity as a reference that deter its followers to act on their basic instincts. This divine entity is their objective reference. 

(2) That's correct. There are people out there who are indeed doing this, because there is no one, which they think, who can stop them. 

My point exactly.

(3) And that's actually they case when you look at humanities past and present. Different cultures were created which different laws. How can that not be a part of subjective morality? 

And that's why we compare those moralities and weigh them based on their own rationale, not based on what we think should be right. If there is any inconsistencies to the rationale of the morality of these Religions at their own perspective, then, it's irrational and therefore its laws and morality are invalid.

(4) It's one of these, both and neither depending on how you look at it. There is no moral ground on where you stand.  Good and bad don't exist from a universal point of you. The universe doesn't care. Humans do. For some humans, Nazi's are consider bad and for others humans Nazi's are considered good. If humans would be objective moral and Nazism considered bad, there wouldn't be any Nazi's. If your counter-argument is, well, that's just wrong, than you committing an appeal to emotions which you actually do by your reasoning. 

And where do these concept of right and wrong came from? There is a reason why Psychology is considered not an empirical Science, because for its theories and concepts, it cannot be broken down into quantum level. A physicist can dissect every cell of your body, but only you knows what is on your mind. The point I'm making is, morality and consciousness cannot be created if the only reality is materialistic. 

(5) And that's also going in the direction of an appeal to emotions. I don't believe in objective morality, nor free will, so how do I solve this issue? I can't call them evil, nor immoral. But I can call them a threat to society in which I live in. In order to grow and live peacefully, I cannot permit such actions. So I will condemn them on this basis alone. 

And this is where we differ, you call them threat to society but that is only your opinion. A Nazi officer may think that the Jews are the threat to society. Who are you to decide you are correct and they are wrong? If Nazi Germany had won the war, and US and Europe had been colonized by Germany, we would think that the Nazi is justified in doing those things in the name of peace.

(6) I don't see the problem by doing so. 

Well, then one should not hide under the premise of metaphysical concepts if one is only following materialistic worldview. You can not have a materialistic only reality while believing in Gender Equality and Morality. You cannot have a Naturalistic view and eat your metaphysical cake too. Unless you come up with a quantum mechanics explanation why this concepts exists, a physical reality does not contain morality. 

Since I believe in metaphysics of Morality and other similar concepts, therefore, there is a reality beyond Physical things, at least from my belief.

(7) Example? 

Watch the video. Though in fairness to Hitchens, he appeared to be not in his best form. I believe Dawkins could come up with a better counter argument.

(8) You can't call that a fact if not all humans agree on it like you've already demonstrated in your own argument. You just shot your own argument.

Truth is not based on consensus, so this is a logical fallacy. At some point in time, most of the Scientists believe that electrons evolve in the nucleus. But we all know that is not the case, since it is present like waves in an atom. What I'm pointing out is, I believe in objective morality, rape and other heinous crimes are generally considered bad.