Do you believe in God? Why/Why not?

[Peh]

Dota2Gamer said:

I have not yet found a convincing counter-argument against the Moral Argument as a proof of God's existence. Granted, I admit I have my own bias since I'm a Christian. We have our own biases anyway but I'm open to hear some different opinions. How would Atheists in this forum counter the moral argument. And please, don't misrepresent the moral argument. I'm not saying that Atheists can not be moral. anyway, below is the argument:

Basically, the argument uses a deductive reasoning (no bible quotes needed)

(1) Premise 1: If God does not exist, then objective moral values do not exist.
Premise 2: Objective moral values exist.
Conclusion: God exists.

The argument is a very simple one, and can be structured something like this:

1. For an objective moral standard to exist, God must exist
2. An objective moral standard does exist
3. Therefore, God exists

It can also be taken into negative form:

1. If God does not exist, objective moral values and duties do not exist
2. Objective moral values and duties do exist
3. Therefore God exists

(2)If we are just in a materialistic reality wherein you are just a clump of atoms that will eventually die and will be rearranged in a different form, what is preventing you from killing everyone for your own benefit and enjoy life to the fullest while you are alive. It is a logical thing to do.

(3)Well, if you counter this argument by saying that morality is subjective, this means that moral codes depends on one's own interpretation. This means that:

1. Nazi people are bad, or
2. Nazi people may think that they are morally right because they are just doing what is best for their own people.

(4)So which is it? Are they bad or good? Where do you base your decision? We all know that they are bad but again, it begs the question. How can an atheist logically call something atrocious, deplorable, evil, or wicked? According to atheism, man is nothing but matter in motion. Humankind allegedly evolved from rocks and slime over billions of years. But who ever speaks of “wrong rocks,” “moral minerals,” “corrupt chemicals,” or “sinful slime?” People do not talk about morally depraved donkeys, evil elephants, or immoral monkeys. Pigs are not punished for being immoral when they eat their young.

(5)Atheists cannot logically condemn the Nazis for objective moral evil, while simultaneously saying that we arose from rocks and rodents. They cannot reasonably rebuke a child molester for being immoral, while at the same time believing that we evolved from slime. Reason demands that objective good and evil can only exist if there is some real, objective reference point.

(6)You see, confining yourself in just the physical reality of the universe requires you to reject metaphysical concepts such as morality in order to stay true to your argument.

(7)I've watched multiple debates by Atheists, including Dawkins and Hitchens, but when this question is raised, they dodged it and misrepresent the argument. Pity, I actually like them because of their deep thoughts even though I disagree with them.

(8)The fact that all humans agree on the concept of good and evil further justifies the bible's quote regarding God putting morality on our hearts, Romans 2:15. Because if we are just a natural and physical occurence, there is no right or wrong, there is only strong and weak.

They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them.

- Romans 2:15

(1) Do objective morals exist? There is no evidence that it does. Personally I don't believe in objective morality. You can have your premises, but there is no foundation for them. 

(2) That's correct. There are people out there who are indeed doing this, because there is no one, which they think, who can stop them. 

(3) And that's actually they case when you look at humanities past and present. Different cultures were created which different laws. How can that not be a part of subjective morality? 

(4) It's one of these, both and neither depending on how you look at it. There is no moral ground on where you stand.  Good and bad don't exist from a universal point of you. The universe doesn't care. Humans do. For some humans, Nazi's are consider bad and for others humans Nazi's are considered good. If humans would be objective moral and Nazism considered bad, there wouldn't be any Nazi's. If your counter-argument is, well, that's just wrong, than you committing an appeal to emotions which you actually do by your reasoning. 

(5) And that's also going in the direction of an appeal to emotions. I don't believe in objective morality, nor free will, so how do I solve this issue? I can't call them evil, nor immoral. But I can call them a threat to society in which I live in. In order to grow and live peacefully, I cannot permit such actions. So I will condemn them on this basis alone. 

(6) I don't see the problem by doing so. 

(7) Example? 

(8) You can't call that a fact if not all humans agree on it like you've already demonstrated in your own argument. You just shot your own argument.

 

Edit: Also, I see a far more bigger issues when Theists (Christians) argue for morality and their guiding book (Bible). It's really easy to throw the argument back at you. Just like that: 

Does it mean that if you stop believing in God and the Bible that you will go out and rape / abuse children and kill people? Because, what's stopping you if God is not real, right?

If I go by Wikipedia, there are about 500 million atheists on this planet. Why aren't they killing each other? They don't believe in any scripts. 

Last edited by Peh - on 06 September 2018