By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics Discussion - U.S. withdraws from UN Human Rights Council

Jon-Erich said:
SuaveSocialist said:

Politifact rates your claim as "False".

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2018/jun/19/matt-schlapp/no-donald-trumps-separation-immigrant-families-was/

Um, no. I never said it was Obama's policy. I just said his administration took similar actions at some point in the past. 

You are still incorrect.  Obama administration never had a zero policy where all people coming to the border are detained and treated as criminals where their children are taken.  This was a direct Executive order and policy shift by Trump and Sessions and its outlined in the memo that he sent to the border agents.  Sessions and Trump both thought this was going to be a deternment for brown people trying to enter the US whether they were seeking asylum or not.  You need to go read the memo and executive order from Trump that started this whole thing.  In the time Obama was in charge or even the other presidents you probably had a few families that were separated not in the thousands and definitely not done to put pressure on Congress and the Dems to support build a wall.  The whole thing started because both Sessions and Trump played a risky political game believing it would have the same results as the whole NFL bout.



Around the Network

SuaveSocialist said:

False.  You did not say "similar".  You said "same". I even quoted you making that claim if you wish to review it for yourself.  

 

Politifact rates that claim as "False".

Their actions in enforcing that law is what differed.

First you said Obama "was doing the SAME THING". 

Now you say his actions "differed" (NOT the same).

You keep defeating your own arguments.



Trump announced to reunite children with their families:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYNuiSpumoQ



Hiku said:
melbye said:
They are illegally entering the United States, they are criminals and therefore jailed. Enter the United States as legal immigrants and the children won't be taken away. And UN's Human Rights Council is a joke

There have been some cases where families who arrive to seek asylum legally have been separated as well, but that's besides the point.
Even if they cross the border illegally, that doesn't mean children should be separated from their parents. (To make matters worse, some of the detention centers they're placed in have histories of serious abuse allegations. Physical, sexual, etc.)

The Holocaust was legal. Slavery was legal. Segregation was legal.
The brave woman who cared for and hid someone's 6 year-old aunt in an attic in Budapest was a criminal. She broke the law by sheltering her. 

Legality is not a guide for morality.
This is definitely a very bad look for the United States. Which is why Trump caved and signed that executive order yesterday, rather than doubling down on trading them for money for his border wall.

There is a fairly huge difference between a country protecting their own borders to subjugation and murder of their own people



melbye said:
Hiku said:

There have been some cases where families who arrive to seek asylum legally have been separated as well, but that's besides the point.
Even if they cross the border illegally, that doesn't mean children should be separated from their parents. (To make matters worse, some of the detention centers they're placed in have histories of serious abuse allegations. Physical, sexual, etc.)

The Holocaust was legal. Slavery was legal. Segregation was legal.
The brave woman who cared for and hid someone's 6 year-old aunt in an attic in Budapest was a criminal. She broke the law by sheltering her. 

Legality is not a guide for morality.
This is definitely a very bad look for the United States. Which is why Trump caved and signed that executive order yesterday, rather than doubling down on trading them for money for his border wall.

There is a fairly huge difference between a country protecting their own borders to subjugation and murder of their own people

So if Trump turned guns on those people trying to enter the US, would you consider that within your moral guide.  I personally am not totally opposed to the zero policy Trump enacted.  I just believe how it was handled was a total bungled mess.



Around the Network
SuaveSocialist said:

Their actions in enforcing that law is what differed.

First you said Obama "was doing the SAME THING". 

Now you say his actions "differed" (NOT the same).

You keep defeating your own arguments.

Wow. You actually do read posts before replying. Good for you. Anyway, they were handling immigration issues. That is the same thing. The specifics in how they were handling it is what differed. To be completely different would be if one President was handling immigration while another one was ignoring it altogether.



Check out my art blog: http://jon-erich-art.blogspot.com

First of all to the family sepperating issue. Its within the laws but inhuman. But also not signed by Trump. That was signed by obama. And those rape allegations are from 2015. Trump wasnt there at that time. I am not a Trump fan but it was NOT Trump.

Leaving the Human Rights Council is the most stupid thing the US could have done. The UN is the one and only tool for the US to influence other Countries with their Softpower. Thats the only reason. Roosevelt, stalin and Churchill didnt create the UNO because they love the world. Its for their own interest because of the Veto right of the US, GB and Russia (Sovjet). The Human Rights council is one of the Tools inside the UN for the US to Show the world that the new ROM, the New British Empire, the New ancient Greek, in this era the US is not only a military empire but also a democratic one.



HylianSwordsman said:
VAMatt said:

I see no reason to think that the UN has prevented any major wars.  There has been near-constant war since the end of WWII.  The fact that the US and the USSR didn't wipe each other off the map has no connection to the UN that I am aware of.  The reason that didn't happen is because there was (and still is) no possible way to "win" that war.  And, there's really no money to be made in fighting it.  

I'm talking about a war over Europe and the free world. There has been constant proxy war, but notice that no wars have taken place in Europe or between Western democracies. That's not all the EU's doing, as this also applies to non-European and non-EU European democracies. Just a few scattered civil wars is all we've seen in the West. And no one has invaded Europe or Western democracies either, which is also partly due to NATO, which is also being weakened by the current administration. Also, the UN has played a huge role in preventing nuclear proliferation, save for a few rogue countries like Iran or North Korea. More nukes in more countries would not make us safer. No one, not even Trump, thinks that. I mean, he's suggested it at times, but he contradicts himself often enough you have to just go by his actions, and he seems to think more countries with nukes is a bad thing. We've almost caused nuclear flareups multiple times simply by accident or miscommunication. Imagine a world where 100+ governments, most of them even more ineffective and sometimes even more corrupt than our bumbling monstrosity, all have nukes. It would be like a room flooded with gasoline and the walls are dynamite and everyone has guns pointed at each other. With two people pointing guns its risky enough, with 100+ people it's all the more terrifying. Aside from that though, imagine the UN collapses tomorrow. Russia would have little incentive not to invade. They already did invade Ukraine, and they'd engage in a full out assault without the UN putting pressure on them and NATO being questioned by the USA. China wouldn't have much reason not to take a crack at it to see what they can grab. They already did so with Tibet. Today's world is rampant with neoimperialism, but a world without the UN or NATO would be rampant with old school imperialism, which is much uglier.

And while I'd agree that there's no way to win a nuclear war, some Russian elites disagree, and believe a quick enough and powerful enough strike with advanced enough tech, which Russia is getting very far ahead of us on, would be enough to leave the enemy defenseless. Once Putin is gone, one of those elites could take over. But that's another can of worms altogether.

I'll note that there definitely has been war in eastern Europe in the last couple decades.  

Anyway, I understand that you think the UN is valuable.  I disagree, as I see little evidence to support that assertion.  I support dissolution of the UN, NATO, and every other time and money wasting, super-government or quasi-government organization.  



Jon-Erich said:
SuaveSocialist said:

First you said Obama "was doing the SAME THING". 

Now you say his actions "differed" (NOT the same).

You keep defeating your own arguments.

The specifics in how they were handling it is what differed. 

So they didn't "do the same thing" after all.  Good to know.



SuaveSocialist said:
Jon-Erich said:

The specifics in how they were handling it is what differed. 

So they didn't "do the same thing" after all.  Good to know.

I've come to realize you're one of those posters. You'll carefully pick words from someone's post in order to create your own context of what that person was saying. In the other thread, you quoted maybe a sentence or two of mine but completely ignored everything else in order to avoid having to challenge any of it because you knew you couldn't. May I ask what the point of doing that is?



Check out my art blog: http://jon-erich-art.blogspot.com