pleaserecycle said: There are so many quotes and different comment chains that I don't even understand what you guys are debating anymore. |
Nothing. It's just one dude acting like he's a moron and thus the discussion is going nowhere.
pleaserecycle said: There are so many quotes and different comment chains that I don't even understand what you guys are debating anymore. |
Nothing. It's just one dude acting like he's a moron and thus the discussion is going nowhere.
o_O.Q said:
"your claim that one needs to be greedy and ignorant to be a scientist." you're twisting my words again to run away... what i actually said is that both are qualities that the practitioners of science always have and anyone who's reasoning properly understands that humans are practitioners " I'm not going to argue any more about this with someone who is obviously in denial." sure... you're denying that practitioner means person and i'm in denial lol
"Well all you did was mention the word 'singularities'. I don't know how you'd expect a reaction from that." yeah... in the context of you asking for an example
"You obviously have a short memory, or else you didn't read the evidence you posted on bloodletting earlier on in this thread. The scientist who tested the effectiveness of bloodletting on flu sufferers found that it didn't have any benefit." yes... which was my point... the people who continued to do the practice did so disregarding the evidence, because they had "faith"
" If you read the evidence you provided for me more closely, you'll see that as medical knowledge improved, physicians had to persuade patients that blood lettings were not necessary." in some cases yes and in others they did so without persuasion, again because they had "faith"
"From the evidence you provided, physicians generally adhered to verified procedures based on the knowledge at the time." which depending on the time period was blood letting... eventually they stopped sure but it was a widely used and accepted procedure for a while and your use of "general" here is telling don't you think?
"You didn't say they were ignorant when viewed through the lens of our current level of development. You implied were ignorant, and challenged me to deny it. Just a little reminder for your short memory: uh and are you really saying that these people were not ignorant? are you kidding me right now? lol" um are you kidding right now if i say that i was ignorant in the past, wtf does that mean? lol do you know the meaning of the word ignorant?
"Then perhaps you should do research first before making unevidenced claims on message boards." i've backed up every claim i've made, i can't force you to accept evidence, that's on you |
"your claim that one needs to be greedy and ignorant to be a scientist." you're twisting my words again to run away... what i actually said is that both are qualities that the practitioners of science always have and anyone who's reasoning properly understands that humans are practitioners " I'm not going to argue any more about this with someone who is obviously in denial." sure... you're denying that practitioner means person and i'm in denial lol |
What you actually said, and I quote: "i think what you are missing is that 'ignorance, greed' are indispensable aspects of the practitioners of science".
Let's analyse that, so you can understand exactly what that means, and so you can understand why I have a problem with the validity of this statement.
Ignorance, greed are indispensable (definition: absolutely necessary) aspects (definition: a quality) of the practitioners (a person actively engaged in an art, discipline, or profession, especially medicine) of science.
Note how you specified practitioners of science. Not practitioners of any other discipline or profession, your claim was specifically about practitioners of science.
Insert these definitions and discard the disciplines and professions that don't fit with your specification of science, and you have "Ignorance, greed are absolutely necessary qualities of the people actively engaged in science."
That means, people actively engaged in science need to be greedy and ignorant, because those qualities are absolutely necessary.
Now, if that wasn't what you intended to mean, then I suggest you retract and clarify your claim.
"Well all you did was mention the word 'singularities'. I don't know how you'd expect a reaction from that." yeah... in the context of you asking for an example |
In the context of me asking for an example of what? Is it that you want to use singularities as an example to prove your claim that
"in the scientific community there is a fair deal of faith in things that do not at present have conclusive evidence"?
If that's what you mean, then please provide a link to some evidence relating to singularities to prove that claim.
"You obviously have a short memory, or else you didn't read the evidence you posted on bloodletting earlier on in this thread. The scientist who tested the effectiveness of bloodletting on flu sufferers found that it didn't have any benefit." yes... which was my point... the people who continued to do the practice did so disregarding the evidence, because they had "faith"
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And your point is Incorrect; the first quote in the box below contradicts it.
" If you read the evidence you provided for me more closely, you'll see that as medical knowledge improved, physicians had to persuade patients that blood lettings were not necessary." in some cases yes and in others they did so without persuasion, again because they had "faith"
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Patients may have had faith in their physicians, but we are not discussing the patients' faith.
"From the evidence you provided, physicians generally adhered to verified procedures based on the knowledge at the time." which depending on the time period was blood letting... eventually they stopped sure but it was a widely used and accepted procedure for a while and your use of "general" here is telling don't you think? |
Finally you agree that it was a widely used and accepted procedure based on the verified scientific knowledge of the time, and not an example of "faith". In fact, you had already accepted that your claim about "faith" didn't apply to scientists of the past, since the claim is aimed at scientists of the present. You have offered the topic of singularities as replacement evidence to back up your claim about "faith" in the scientific community of the present. I will be waiting to see the link to that evidence in your next reply.
(BTW, my inclusion of the word 'general' acknowledges the certain individuals who took longer to modify their practices in the light of emerging medical evidence, an example of which you kindly provided later on.)
"You didn't say they were ignorant when viewed through the lens of our current level of development. You implied were ignorant, and challenged me to deny it. Just a little reminder for your short memory: uh and are you really saying that these people were not ignorant? are you kidding me right now? lol" um are you kidding right now
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I posted an example of your comment, and you're telling me I'm kidding? Okay, I'll find actual links to the examples of you implying that scientists of the past were ignorant, if you don't believe me.
http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8688841
Hedra42 -
"The people that bled people were not ignorant. Definition of ignorant: lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated."
o_O.Q -
yeah... and the practitioners of this method lacked the knowledge and awareness to question their belief in it... i don't see how you can deny that
http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8688070
o_O.Q -
uh and are you really saying that these people were not ignorant? are you kidding me right now? lol
so people that bled people out to cure them weren't ignorant? ok lol
I have not been able to find anywhere in this thread any evidence of you claiming that scientists of the past were ignorant "when viewed through the lens of our current level of development", so unless you can point me to it, with a link to the post that contains it, I'll assume that this is a lie.
"Then perhaps you should do research first before making unevidenced claims on message boards." i've backed up every claim i've made, i can't force you to accept evidence, that's on you
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That's the biggest lie so far. I will remind you of the list of various claims you made in this thread, which I first compiled here http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8687547 - and which I asked you to back them up with evidence twice, and so far all you have done is comment on them. In fact, this is the third time I've compiled them, and they're all here in the box below, highlighted in bold, (bar one, which has been resolved through examining evidence on a related claim) I have inserted the status of each (in italics).
“i do think science has had more significant negative impacts on the planet than religion... and i don't think anyone can really disagree with that” (No evidence supplied) “The development of these and other weapons and the other peripheral effects i touched briefly on (global warming for example) have arguably lead to the loss of more life than the conflicts of religion have...” (no evidence supplied) (in response to Pemalite’s comment "Ironically, it's the far-right, typically religious conservatives that are against the idea of things like climate change and thus the solution to many of those issues you have listed.") "how is it ironic? it could only be ironic if religion caused the problem to begin with... i'd argue that since religion is against technology advancement that its actually quite the opposite" (no evidence supplied) "i think what you are missing is that " ignorance, greed" are indispensable aspects of the practitioners of science " (Content of claim being analysed)
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How can I be forced to accept evidence on any of these when you haven't provided it in the first place?
Last edited by Hedra42 - on 12 January 2018
Chrizum said:
Nothing. It's just one dude acting like he's a moron and thus the discussion is going nowhere. |
oh go away if you have nothing to add, i shoudl report you for your constant attacks
its getting old
Hedra42 said:
What you actually said, and I quote: "i think what you are missing is that 'ignorance, greed' are indispensable aspects of the practitioners of science". Let's analyse that, so you can understand exactly what that means, and so you can understand why I have a problem with the validity of this statement. Ignorance, greed are indispensable (definition: absolutely necessary) aspects (definition: a quality) of the practitioners (a person actively engaged in an art, discipline, or profession, especially medicine) of science. Note how you specified practitioners of science. Not practitioners of any other discipline or profession, your claim was specifically about practitioners of science. Insert these definitions and discard the disciplines and professions that don't fit with your specification of science, and you have "Ignorance, greed are absolutely necessary qualities of the people actively engaged in science." That means, people actively engaged in science need to be greedy and ignorant, because those qualities are absolutely necessary. Now, if that wasn't what you intended to mean, then I suggest you retract and clarify your claim.
In the context of me asking for an example of what? Is it that you want to use singularities as an example to prove your claim that If that's what you mean, then please provide a link to some evidence relating to singularities to prove that claim. And your point is Incorrect; the first quote in the box below contradicts it. Patients may have had faith in their physicians, but we are not discussing the patients' faith. Finally you agree that it was a widely used and accepted procedure based on the verified scientific knowledge of the time, and not an example of "faith". In fact, you had already accepted that your claim about "faith" didn't apply to scientists of the past, since the claim is aimed at scientists of the present. You have offered the topic of singularities as replacement evidence to back up your claim about "faith" in the scientific community of the present. I will be waiting to see the link to that evidence in your next reply. (BTW, my inclusion of the word 'general' acknowledges the certain individuals who took longer to modify their practices in the light of emerging medical evidence, an example of which you kindly provided later on.) I posted an example of your comment, and you're telling me I'm kidding? Okay, I'll find actual links to the examples of you implying that scientists of the past were ignorant, if you don't believe me. http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8688841 Hedra42 - "The people that bled people were not ignorant. Definition of ignorant: lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated." o_O.Q - yeah... and the practitioners of this method lacked the knowledge and awareness to question their belief in it... i don't see how you can deny that http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8688070 o_O.Q - uh and are you really saying that these people were not ignorant? are you kidding me right now? lol so people that bled people out to cure them weren't ignorant? ok lol I have not been able to find anywhere in this thread any evidence of you claiming that scientists of the past were ignorant "when viewed through the lens of our current level of development", so unless you can point me to it, with a link to the post that contains it, I'll assume that this is a lie. That's the biggest lie so far. I will remind you of the list of various claims you made in this thread, which I first compiled here http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8687547 - and which I asked you to back them up with evidence twice, and so far all you have done is comment on them. In fact, this is the third time I've compiled them, and they're all here in the box below, highlighted in bold, (bar one, which has been resolved through examining evidence on a related claim) I have inserted the status of each (in italics). How can I be forced to accept evidence on any of these when you haven't provided it in the first place?
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"Insert these definitions and discard the disciplines and professions that don't fit with your specification of science, and you have "Ignorance, greed are absolutely necessary qualities of the people actively engaged in science."
That means, people actively engaged in science need to be greedy and ignorant, because those qualities are absolutely necessary."
dude this is becoming a joke
i'm saying that ignorance and greed are qualities people have and the practitioners of science are people... very simple, accept that you were wrong and move the hell on ffs
it has nothing to do about "needing", jesus christ if i say people have skin does that mean i'm saying people "need" skin? that's literally what you're doing right now
"If that's what you mean, then please provide a link to some evidence relating to singularities to prove that claim."
singularities break the laws of mathematics and physics
http://www.physlink.com/education/askexperts/ae251.cfm
"Patients may have had faith in their physicians, but we are not discussing the patients' faith."
well its great then that i never talked about the patients but the physicians that proceeded to continue these procedures despite the evidence because of their "faith"
if these people didn't have faith, why did they continue these procedures despite the evidence that they were harmful?
"Finally you agree that it was a widely used and accepted procedure based on the verified scientific knowledge of the time, and not an example of "faith"."
i repeatedly disagreed with that in my last post and in my response just above
"I posted an example of your comment, and you're telling me I'm kidding?"
because you're either pretending that you don't understand what ignorant means or you don't know what ignorant means, which would be ironic
according to your definition of ignorant we can't call the people of the past ignorant lol
"I have not been able to find anywhere in this thread any evidence of you claiming that scientists of the past were ignorant "when viewed through the lens of our current level of development""
whenever someone uses the word ignorant, it is a statement of comparison to present knowledge in their environment
when people say that the culture of muslims is backwards and ignorant with regards to their treatment of women they obviously aren't using that within the context of muslims, its a comparative statement to their current environment
did i really seriously have to go through this to get you to understand what ignorant means?
watch - muslims lack the knowledge and awareness to treat women better so they aren't ignorant... really?
"I will remind you of the list of various claims you made in this thread"
all of which i have backed up but you can't accept being wrong supposedly
o_O.Q said:
"Insert these definitions and discard the disciplines and professions that don't fit with your specification of science, and you have "Ignorance, greed are absolutely necessary qualities of the people actively engaged in science." That means, people actively engaged in science need to be greedy and ignorant, because those qualities are absolutely necessary." dude this is becoming a joke i'm saying that ignorance and greed are qualities people have and the practitioners of science are people... very simple, accept that you were wrong and move the hell on ffs it has nothing to do about "needing", jesus christ if i say people have skin does that mean i'm saying people "need" skin? that's literally what you're doing right now |
It was YOU who said scientists need to be ignorant and greedy. You literally said it in this quote (emphasis on the bold) "i think what you are missing is that 'ignorance, greed' are indispensable aspects of the practitioners of science".
When everyone is pointing out you are wrong, well, it probably means you are. Have some self-reflection. Just try to think for a few seconds "hmm, what if all those people have a point? What if I am wrong about some things?". Well who am I kidding... at this point I refuse to believe your intention is to have a decent discussion at all. Report me all you want, let's see how that turns out.
Chrizum said:
It was YOU who said scientists need to be ignorant and greedy. You literally said it in this quote (emphasis on the bold) "i think what you are missing is that 'ignorance, greed' are indispensable aspects of the practitioners of science". When everyone is pointing out you are wrong, well, it probably means you are. Have some self-reflection. Just try to think for a few seconds "hmm, what if all those people have a point? What if I am wrong about some things?". Well who am I kidding... at this point I refuse to believe your intention is to have a decent discussion at all. Report me all you want, let's see how that turns out. |
i'm glad that you decided to get involved instead of throwing insults from the sidelines
"It was YOU who said scientists need to be ignorant and greedy. You literally said it in this quote (emphasis on the bold) "i think what you are missing is that 'ignorance, greed' are indispensable aspects of the practitioners of science"
yes i didn't deny it, i'm pointing out that he's rewording what i said to make it sound illogical even though its obviously true
"When everyone is pointing out you are wrong"
bullshit, you have not pointed out how the statement is wrong, if you want to try now go ahead since he has failed
"at this point I refuse to believe your intention is to have a decent discussion at all."
lol you've been the one attacking me constantly dude don't be a hypocrite
o_O.Q said:
"It was YOU who said scientists need to be ignorant and greedy. You literally said it in this quote (emphasis on the bold) "i think what you are missing is that 'ignorance, greed' are indispensable aspects of the practitioners of science" yes i didn't deny it, i'm pointing out that he's rewording what i said to make it sound illogical even though its obviously true |
lol, you have been vehemently denying it, and wriggling out of it by saying greed and ignorance are attributes to humanity as a whole! I reworded it to help you understand what you were saying - but don't bother replying to this, I'll address it properly to your reply on my post.
(edit) and btw I am female.
Hedra42 said:
lol, you have been vehemently denying it, and wriggling out of it by saying greed and ignorance are attributes to humanity as a whole! I reworded it to help you understand what you were saying - but don't bother replying to this, I'll address it properly to your reply on my post. (edit) and btw I am female. |
"lol, you have been vehemently denying it, and wriggling out of it by saying greed and ignorance are attributes to humanity as a whole!"
they are and i said so from the start
you are ignorant and greedy to some extent, i am, your aunt is, your father is and on and on and on
they are innate qualities of being a person and exist on a spectrum with some showing greater expression than others
and i'm surprised that the other person who claims to be a social scientist is arguing against me on this... that's absolutely amazing to me
"btw I am female."
that's amazing and sorry if i misgendered you
o_O.Q said:
"lol, you have been vehemently denying it, and wriggling out of it by saying greed and ignorance are attributes to humanity as a whole!" they are and i said so from the start you are ignorant and greedy to some extent, i am, your aunt is, your father is and on and on and on they are innate qualities of being a person and exist on a spectrum with some showing greater expression than others and i'm surprised that the other person who claims to be a social scientist is arguing against me on this... that's absolutely amazing to me |
You're twisting words again (what a surprise), I never said that. I was just pointing out one of your many cover-ups in this thread. But it's pointless, Hedra42 already pointed it out flawlessly and you still refuse to acknowledge it, trying to weasel your way out again.
While religion often creates conflict as its adherents feel the need to force their beliefs on others, even though their religion actually teaches compassion (silly assholes), it perpetuates that conflict through the worst possible usage of the war machines you used as a scientific example of harm to the world.
For a real conversation on this you have to set some boundaries and in that rule out extremism actions of minorities. After all, if you are going to argue it could be a nuke, then I'd argue it would more than likely be a religious extremist that used the nuke. Or since we're talking hypotheticals, it could be just as easily one or the other.
So focusing on the majority plausible scenarios that have a basis in either purely religious root causes or purely scientific root causes, I'd have to say that sciences is the more likely destruction of human life. Though that doesn't mean it should be halted or stopped. Just that it has higher set of risks that need to be managed well.
Reasoning:
For religion to be a root cause that destroys humanity, it has to be such that a body of people are able to instigate a large enough conflict where military power destroys us all. This is definitely possible and the rise of Christian extremism in the US is an example where I fear there is a real plausibility of this to occur. But this is very much a limited plausibility at the moment and more than likely to trend away over time. (hopefully)
For science to be a root cause that destroys humanity, it is more simply a set of testing and scientific discovery that creates either a mistake or a tool that fails or is used incorrectly. AI is a potential threat. Genetic manipulation is a potential threat. Virus testing for cures is a potential threat. There are so many scientific investigations and discoveries going on that could result in catastrophic failure should the wrong outcomes happen. This is the basis of many movies of course but very much a real possibility. I see this as actually being a more realistic scenario aside from a warmongering asshole (religious or not) creating a world-wide conflict.
So, purely hypothetical mental model that looks at the most plausible scenario is one based on science, not religion, that kills off humanity. Unless an alien race kills us off because their religion says they are the only true beings of God.