By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Gaming Discussion - The wisdom of the 6Tf vs 4Tf

Errorist76 said:
Ruler said:

But these features the X has over the Pro arent something you cant fundamentally fix. Downsampling is something they can update for the Pro, 4K blue ray playback they can update or release it with a PS4 Pro revision in the future. The Pro was never supposed to be a 4K machine, otherwise they would have called it the PS4K.

You also forget that the Pro came out one year earlier, so its not only about money. I dont think it was the better execution to let customers wait another year of better PS4 and PS4 Pro multiplats for something the X wouldnt accomplish in the first place. The Xbox One was always 500$, it would have been stronger than the Pro even a year earlier, and Sony wouldnt have made the Pro to be 500$ hardware.

 

Ruler said:

But these features the X has over the Pro arent something you cant fundamentally fix. Downsampling is something they can update for the Pro, 4K blue ray playback they can update or release it with a PS4 Pro revision in the future. The Pro was never supposed to be a 4K machine, otherwise they would have called it the PS4K.

You also forget that the Pro came out one year earlier, so its not only about money. I dont think it was the better execution to let customers wait another year of better PS4 and PS4 Pro multiplats for something the X wouldnt accomplish in the first place. The Xbox One was always 500$, it would have been stronger than the Pro even a year earlier, and Sony wouldnt have made the Pro to be 500$ hardware.

You also need to consider that, even the Pro has a somewhat slower GPU and is considerably less expensive, it still has a more advanced graphics chip than X1X, which even features Vega features Dony developed together with AMD. Games like Exclusives and third party games like Far Cry 5 will make use of these and we’ll see in upcoming games how far that goes.

And the XBox One X is supposed to have DX12 backed in into the hardware, i wouldnt listen to anything what these companies have to say that isnt real hardware when it comes to power



Around the Network
DonFerrari said:
Captain_Yuri said:

Too bad the developers are lazy... Yea the devs can patch it in themselves except they don't. Just cause they can doesn't mean they will which is proven by the year lead the Ps4 Pro has. The devs had an entire year to patch their games with it yet they didn't. Only a few games on the pro really have Down Sampling when it comes to 1080p where as every game that has a higher resolution than 1080 on the X1X has Down Sampling and AF. And if it's not supposed to be a 4k machine, then maybe they shouldn't advertise it as that... Yet they do...

If it meant to the pro would have what the x1x has now, then I would consider it to be worth the wait. The Ps4 Pro leaves it all to the developers which is its problem. Some games you have all the features like a Down Sampling at 1080p with increased visual affects while having an option of performance mode or 4k mode while in many others, it's just basic 1440p checkerboard to 4k and that's that. With the x1x, there is more of a guarantee of what the buyers will get cause every game that has a 4k mode will also have down sampling and AF at 1080p. Yea it costs $500 but oh well... If I am gonna spend money on a mid-cycle refresh, I would want the best experience there is. If I can't afford it, well there's always the base console. The only reason I don't own a x1x is cause of the games but if the games were the same and weren't available on PC, I'd choose it over the pro any day of the week even if it costs more.

It's better to leave it to each dev, if you force things not only you can make the relationship bad but you may also make they checkbox on some features that may make the final product worst than what they would do with freedom. Because for one game 4k60fps may be better than complexity and size of map, for another dropping to 30fps will allow better IQ, etc. So having a game that only needs 30fps having to put 60fps for example would compromise other aspects of the game that were more important.

 

Well based on the games that's coming out on both PS4 Pro vs X1x... When the devs have this so called freedom, guess what they are doing with it? Nothing... Guess what they did with the x1x version? Enhance it...

Leaving it up to devs sounds great on paper but after a full year of lead with the Ps4 Pro, the results speak for themselves... Rarely did we ever see the Devs enhance the games for the Ps4 Pro apart from just the basic higher rendering resolution... 1080p mode on most games on the pro were almost exactly the same as on the ps4 which to me, buying a mid-cycle refresh for a better experience, is nonsense.

And sure, there could be some negative effects in developer relations but I highly doubt it will effect anything. I mean heck, they only really enhanced the witcher 3 after the x1x came out so I doubt it has any negative affect tbh. But if it does the trade off is worth it imo cause the consumers who buy it get a much better experience.



                  

PC Specs: CPU: 7800X3D || GPU: Strix 4090 || RAM: 32GB DDR5 6000 || Main SSD: WD 2TB SN850

Captain_Yuri said:
Ruler said:

But these features the X has over the Pro arent something you cant fundamentally fix. Downsampling is something they can update for the Pro, 4K blue ray playback they can update or release it with a PS4 Pro revision in the future. The Pro was never supposed to be a 4K machine, otherwise they would have called it the PS4K.

You also forget that the Pro came out one year earlier, so its not only about money. I dont think it was the better execution to let customers wait another year of better PS4 and PS4 Pro multiplats for something the X wouldnt accomplish in the first place. The Xbox One was always 500$, it would have been stronger than the Pro even a year earlier, and Sony wouldnt have made the Pro to be 500$ hardware.

Too bad the developers are lazy... Yea the devs can patch it in themselves except they don't. Just cause they can doesn't mean they will which is proven by the year lead the Ps4 Pro has. The devs had an entire year to patch their games with it yet they didn't. Only a few games on the pro really have Down Sampling when it comes to 1080p where as every game that has a higher resolution than 1080 on the X1X has Down Sampling and AF. And if it's not supposed to be a 4k machine, then maybe they shouldn't advertise it as that... Yet they do...

If it meant to the pro would have what the x1x has now, then I would consider it to be worth the wait. The Ps4 Pro leaves it all to the developers which is its problem. Some games you have all the features like a Down Sampling at 1080p with increased visual affects while having an option of performance mode or 4k mode while in many others, it's just basic 1440p checkerboard to 4k and that's that. With the x1x, there is more of a guarantee of what the buyers will get cause every game that has a 4k mode will also have down sampling and AF at 1080p. Yea it costs $500 but oh well... If I am gonna spend money on a mid-cycle refresh, I would want the best experience there is. If I can't afford it, well there's always the base console. The only reason I don't own a x1x is cause of the games but if the games were the same and weren't available on PC, I'd choose it over the pro any day of the week even if it costs more.

Thats not what i meant, Sony can update the PS4 Pro to have down sampling with every game. Most games do downsample, its like only 20 games who dont so you are wrong in this one.

Some better supersanpling and AF doesnt justify spending 500$, the X has the same problems the Pro is facing in the end of the day, the simple fact that developers refuse to give different options that could benefit 1080p users like better graphics in 1080p, along performance and resolution modes. The better AF on the Xbox One X is also only effecting games who arent optimized for the X.

500$ is a lot of money for a mid gen refresh as the word mid-gen refresh is telling you why this is, thats how much money you would pay if a new console like the PS5 or the next Xbox would come out, a real upgrade.

Yeah you would spend that money, but why should i get the Xbox One X now if already have a PS4 Pro? Because you know it came out one year earlier? And this supersampling and AF for every game is that worth to get an Xbox One X now over the Pro or what is worth the wait? I dont think so.



I wish the ps4 pro was 5 and had more memory.. how can the pros GPU be better than the x1 

Last edited by Lespaul - on 22 December 2017

Ruler said:
Captain_Yuri said:

Too bad the developers are lazy... Yea the devs can patch it in themselves except they don't. Just cause they can doesn't mean they will which is proven by the year lead the Ps4 Pro has. The devs had an entire year to patch their games with it yet they didn't. Only a few games on the pro really have Down Sampling when it comes to 1080p where as every game that has a higher resolution than 1080 on the X1X has Down Sampling and AF. And if it's not supposed to be a 4k machine, then maybe they shouldn't advertise it as that... Yet they do...

If it meant to the pro would have what the x1x has now, then I would consider it to be worth the wait. The Ps4 Pro leaves it all to the developers which is its problem. Some games you have all the features like a Down Sampling at 1080p with increased visual affects while having an option of performance mode or 4k mode while in many others, it's just basic 1440p checkerboard to 4k and that's that. With the x1x, there is more of a guarantee of what the buyers will get cause every game that has a 4k mode will also have down sampling and AF at 1080p. Yea it costs $500 but oh well... If I am gonna spend money on a mid-cycle refresh, I would want the best experience there is. If I can't afford it, well there's always the base console. The only reason I don't own a x1x is cause of the games but if the games were the same and weren't available on PC, I'd choose it over the pro any day of the week even if it costs more.

Thats not what i meant, Sony can update the PS4 Pro to have down sampling with every game. Most games do downsample, its like only 20 games who dont so you are wrong in this one.

Some better supersanpling and AF doesnt justify spending 500$, the X has the same problems the Pro is facing in the end of the day, the simple fact that developers refuse to give different options that could benefit 1080p users like better graphics in 1080p, along performance and resolution modes. The better AF on the Xbox One X is also only effecting games who arent optimized for the X.

500$ is a lot of money for a mid gen refresh as the word mid-gen refresh is telling you why this is, thats how much money you would pay if a new console like the PS5 or the next Xbox would come out, a real upgrade.

Yeah you would spend that money, but why should i get the Xbox One X now if already have a PS4 Pro? Because you know it came out one year earlier? And this supersampling and AF for every game is that worth to get an Xbox One X now over the Pro or what is worth the wait? I dont think so.

"Most games do downsample" Nope

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1324251

Yea sure they could but until they do... Which who knows will be when... The Xbox 1 X will still take the lead. And either ways, it will be better on the x1x.

Whether or not those features justify spending $500 on a console is up to the customer but what the x1x brings is a guarantee that any games that has a resolution above 1080p will be down sampling. Yea the developers aren't giving the x1x options either but having Down Sampling and AF is better than nothing... Which is what the ps4 pro gives with the games that have no enhancements by devs at 1080p.

Yea $500 is but the reason anyone would want to get a mid-cycle refresh in the first place is to have more features and a better experience... If all they get is a resolution boost to not even 4k for most games, it's like... May as well just get the base model.

Maybe not for you but that doesn't matter... Cause based on your posting history, you are bias anyway... Even if the x1x gave you everything for $100, you would still prefer the Ps4 Pro and find a way to make the x1x look bad. And I don't see what it wouldn't be worth the wait if you can afford it. You get a guarantee of getting all your games that run at a higher resolution than 1080p to have enhancements vs the ps4 pro, you don't know what you are gonna get at the very least apart from a higher resolution.



                  

PC Specs: CPU: 7800X3D || GPU: Strix 4090 || RAM: 32GB DDR5 6000 || Main SSD: WD 2TB SN850

Around the Network
Captain_Yuri said:
DonFerrari said:

It's better to leave it to each dev, if you force things not only you can make the relationship bad but you may also make they checkbox on some features that may make the final product worst than what they would do with freedom. Because for one game 4k60fps may be better than complexity and size of map, for another dropping to 30fps will allow better IQ, etc. So having a game that only needs 30fps having to put 60fps for example would compromise other aspects of the game that were more important.

Well based on the games that's coming out on both PS4 Pro vs X1x... When the devs have this so called freedom, guess what they are doing with it? Nothing... Guess what they did with the x1x version? Enhance it...

Leaving it up to devs sounds great on paper but after a full year of lead with the Ps4 Pro, the results speak for themselves... Rarely did we ever see the Devs enhance the games for the Ps4 Pro apart from just the basic higher rendering resolution... 1080p mode on most games on the pro were almost exactly the same as on the ps4 which to me, buying a mid-cycle refresh for a better experience, is nonsense.

And sure, there could be some negative effects in developer relations but I highly doubt it will effect anything. I mean heck, they only really enhanced the witcher 3 after the x1x came out so I doubt it has any negative affect tbh. But if it does the trade off is worth it imo cause the consumers who buy it get a much better experience.

MS said they would demand 4k from all devs, to just a few time later backtrack on it. The games I really care about are all looking incredible on PS4Pro even though I'm aware that a lot haven't put a PS4Pro enhancement. Sony have only demanded that it's at least equal to PS4 basic.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Ruler said:
Errorist76 said:

 

You also need to consider that, even the Pro has a somewhat slower GPU and is considerably less expensive, it still has a more advanced graphics chip than X1X, which even features Vega features Dony developed together with AMD. Games like Exclusives and third party games like Far Cry 5 will make use of these and we’ll see in upcoming games how far that goes.

And the XBox One X is supposed to have DX12 backed in into the hardware, i wouldnt listen to anything what these companies have to say that isnt real hardware when it comes to power

I think that was an oversimplification when they stated that Direct X 12 was baked into hardware.
The API is still very much software driven, but some of the aspects related to handling things like draw calls in the Direct X 12 API has been offloaded into the GPU's command processor.

Which is again... Why listening to Phil or Cerny is a bad idea, they embellish things, go for an impartial source instead.

DonFerrari said:

MS said they would demand 4k from all devs, to just a few time later backtrack on it. The games I really care about are all looking incredible on PS4Pro even though I'm aware that a lot haven't put a PS4Pro enhancement. Sony have only demanded that it's at least equal to PS4 basic.


If you already have invested in a Playstation 4 Pro, there is still very little reason to go for the Xbox One X in my opinion.
You would have likely already invested in Sony's online and software library and accessories and so on.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

I'm just glad to see Xbox get a big name semi-exclusive title and get good sales numbers. Microsoft and Sony pushing back and forth is why 8th Gen has been so nice. And now that Nintendo had legitimately joined the fray, I'm expecting to see some great innovation over the next 2-4 years that seems to be left in 8th Gen.



Watch me stream games and hunt trophies on my Twitch channel!

Check out my Twitch Channel!:

www.twitch.tv/AzurenGames

Captain_Yuri said:
Ruler said:

Thats not what i meant, Sony can update the PS4 Pro to have down sampling with every game. Most games do downsample, its like only 20 games who dont so you are wrong in this one.

Some better supersanpling and AF doesnt justify spending 500$, the X has the same problems the Pro is facing in the end of the day, the simple fact that developers refuse to give different options that could benefit 1080p users like better graphics in 1080p, along performance and resolution modes. The better AF on the Xbox One X is also only effecting games who arent optimized for the X.

500$ is a lot of money for a mid gen refresh as the word mid-gen refresh is telling you why this is, thats how much money you would pay if a new console like the PS5 or the next Xbox would come out, a real upgrade.

Yeah you would spend that money, but why should i get the Xbox One X now if already have a PS4 Pro? Because you know it came out one year earlier? And this supersampling and AF for every game is that worth to get an Xbox One X now over the Pro or what is worth the wait? I dont think so.

"Most games do downsample" Nope

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1324251

Yea sure they could but until they do... Which who knows will be when... The Xbox 1 X will still take the lead. And either ways, it will be better on the x1x.

Whether or not those features justify spending $500 on a console is up to the customer but what the x1x brings is a guarantee that any games that has a resolution above 1080p will be down sampling. Yea the developers aren't giving the x1x options either but having Down Sampling and AF is better than nothing... Which is what the ps4 pro gives with the games that have no enhancements by devs at 1080p.

Yea $500 is but the reason anyone would want to get a mid-cycle refresh in the first place is to have more features and a better experience... If all they get is a resolution boost to not even 4k for most games, it's like... May as well just get the base model.

Maybe not for you but that doesn't matter... Cause based on your posting history, you are bias anyway... Even if the x1x gave you everything for $100, you would still prefer the Ps4 Pro and find a way to make the x1x look bad. And I don't see what it wouldn't be worth the wait if you can afford it. You get a guarantee of getting all your games that run at a higher resolution than 1080p to have enhancements vs the ps4 pro, you don't know what you are gonna get at the very least apart from a higher resolution.

Yes most games do downsample. You would know if you would take the time and read your own link you have posted, only around 20 games do not downsample from 267 PS4 Pro games in total https://www.resetera.com/threads/all-games-with-ps4-pro-enhancements.3101

The red X from the link signalises that you can not get supersampling on a 1080p TV.You also dont understand how it works as you think its so important for some reason, because having supersampling on a 1080p TV output is essentially running the game in 4K on your 1080p TV, which gives you only slighter better AA this is what Supersampling is. But running your game in 4K is a huge waste for 1080p TVs, one result can be that some games will run worse on your PS4 Pro than the base PS4 as a 1080p user, like it is in Skyrim Remastered which many have complained.


The developers arent just locking you out from supersampling beacause they are all lazy but because they see that the 4K mode is dropping more frames, so why should they force you as a 1080p user to having less performance for some slighter better Anti Aliasing? Last Guardian is a good example, on 1080p you get in fact the best performance, better than the 4K mode and a lot better than the base PS4. Yes you cant access the 4K mode, so no supersampling for you but who cares about that if you have rock solid 30fps without any drops?


The XBox One X on the other hand isnt designed that way, it will always force 4K on 1080p Televisions hence why it always can downsample. In Some cases the result is even a lot worse than on the PS4 Pro like in The Evil Within 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNpwtLpE0LE#t=8m 

With Evil Within 2 as a 1080p user you simple get 1800p downsampled on your Xbox One X, but with the PS4 Pro on the other hand the game still runs in 1080p and therefore has a lot better performance. So you prefer some better AA on your 1080p TV than almost hitting 60fps? 


If all they get is a resolution boost to not even 4k for most games, it's like... May as well just get the base model.

 

And the same logic doesnt apply to the Xbox One X according to you for some reason?

You get a guarantee of getting all your games that run at a higher resolution than 1080p to have enhancements vs the ps4 pro, you don't know what you are gonna get at the very least apart from a higher resolution.

I can tell you what you get with the PS4 Pro, the boost mode for older games and the same options the Xbox One X enhanced games have. Stop downplaying the Pro like the X is on a whole different level, it isnt. Take a look closer at the link you or i have posted with all the PS4 Pro games listed, the vast majority of them are giving benefits for 1080p users. Many games were even designed with 1080p in mind like Nier Automta.

Last edited by Ruler - on 23 December 2017

Ruler said:
Captain_Yuri said:

"Most games do downsample" Nope

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1324251

Yea sure they could but until they do... Which who knows will be when... The Xbox 1 X will still take the lead. And either ways, it will be better on the x1x.

Whether or not those features justify spending $500 on a console is up to the customer but what the x1x brings is a guarantee that any games that has a resolution above 1080p will be down sampling. Yea the developers aren't giving the x1x options either but having Down Sampling and AF is better than nothing... Which is what the ps4 pro gives with the games that have no enhancements by devs at 1080p.

Yea $500 is but the reason anyone would want to get a mid-cycle refresh in the first place is to have more features and a better experience... If all they get is a resolution boost to not even 4k for most games, it's like... May as well just get the base model.

Maybe not for you but that doesn't matter... Cause based on your posting history, you are bias anyway... Even if the x1x gave you everything for $100, you would still prefer the Ps4 Pro and find a way to make the x1x look bad. And I don't see what it wouldn't be worth the wait if you can afford it. You get a guarantee of getting all your games that run at a higher resolution than 1080p to have enhancements vs the ps4 pro, you don't know what you are gonna get at the very least apart from a higher resolution.

Yes most games do downsample. You would know if you would take the time and read your own link you have posted, only around 20 games do not downsample from 267 PS4 Pro games in total https://www.resetera.com/threads/all-games-with-ps4-pro-enhancements.3101

The red X from the link signalises that you can not get supersampling on a 1080p TV.You also dont understand how it works as you think its so important for some reason, because having supersampling on a 1080p TV output is essentially running the game in 4K on your 1080p TV, which gives you only slighter better AA this is what Supersampling is. But running your game in 4K is a huge waste for 1080p TVs, one result can be that some games will run worse on your PS4 Pro than the base PS4 as a 1080p user, like it is in Skyrim Remastered which many have complained.

The developers arent just locking you out from supersampling beacause they are all lazy but because they see that the 4K mode is dropping more frames, so why should they force you as a 1080p user to having less performance for some slighter better Anti Aliasing? Last Guardian is a good example, on 1080p you get in fact the best performance, better than the 4K mode and a lot better than the base PS4. Yes you cant access the 4K mode, so no supersampling for you but who cares about that if you have rock solid 30fps without any drops?

The XBox One X on the other hand isnt designed that way, it will always force 4K on 1080p Televisions hence why it always can downsample. In Some cases the result is even a lot worse than on the PS4 Pro like in The Evil Within 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNpwtLpE0LE#t=8m 

As a 1080p user you simple get 1800p downsampled on your Xbox One X, but with the PS4 Pro on the other hand the game still runs in 1080p and therefore has a lot better performance. So you prefer some better AA on your 1080p TV than almost hitting 60fps? 

If all they get is a resolution boost to not even 4k for most games, it's like... May as well just get the base model.

 

And the same logic doesnt apply to the Xbox One X according to you for some reason?

You get a guarantee of getting all your games that run at a higher resolution than 1080p to have enhancements vs the ps4 pro, you don't know what you are gonna get at the very least apart from a higher resolution.

I can tell you what you get with the PS4 Pro, the boost mode for older games and the same options the Xbox One X enhanced games have. Stop downplaying the Pro like the X is on a whole different level, it isnt. Take a look closer at the link you or i have posted with all the PS4 Pro games listed, the vast majority of them are giving benefits for 1080p users. Many games were even designed with 1080p in mind like Nier Automta.

Welp, that is odd but I guess even I have my off days. Sorry guys, my mistake.



                  

PC Specs: CPU: 7800X3D || GPU: Strix 4090 || RAM: 32GB DDR5 6000 || Main SSD: WD 2TB SN850