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Forums - Sony Discussion - PS4 Still beating PS2, launch aligned

But still falling behind the Wii in the same timeframe.

It's hard to say if PS4 will have the same life span as the PS2 and leg out just as well.



I predict NX launches in 2017 - not 2016

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Farsala said:
zorg1000 said:

Its ahead based on initial release date but PS2 was only available in Japan for about 8 months. PS2 is pretty far ahead when looking at it from a region to region standpoint.

PS2 released March 2000 in Japan & Oct/Nov 2000 in America/PAL regions. Here is the breakdown per region in the same time frame.

Japan as of March 2003-12.70

America as of March 2004-29.53

PAL as of March 2004-24.79

Total-67.02

 



Regardless, excellent sales for PS4!!!!

Pretty much made it on par with the Wii then? Dominance in the casual market may never be quite achieved like the Wii and PS2 did.

Wii was around 70 million in the same time frame.



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

thismeintiel said:
BraLoD said:

I think you missed his point.
PS2 lags were completely different, they kept for years after the PS3 came.
That accounts on both the PS2 was really cheap and completely one sided dominating anything and the PS3 was up to a rough start.

PS4 has more competition than the PS2 ever had on its entire lifespan by the end of this year, and they learned from the PS3 mistakes so the PS5 should not get eaten by the PS4 and the sales should flow more normally when it comes.

That will prevent the PS4 from having the same kind of lags the PS2 did, and eventually failing to match its total sales by a good amount, even if it's still tracking ahead of it.

While I agree it won't match the PS2. Sony has done a couple of smart things to help its legs. For one, by using less custom chips, the price of the PS4 will be able to drop more in line with the PS2. The PS3 didn't drop to $249 til it's 5th year on the market. PS4 will hit that this year, its 4th. He'll, it may even see a cut to $199.  A cut that happened so late in the PS3's lifespan, it made little difference.  That $199 price came along with the launch of the PS4. When the PS5 comes, the PS4 will most likely be $149, with an actual chance Sony can get it down to $99-$129.  That'll do wonders for its legs.

Then, you have the Pro, which uses the same chips as the PS4, only overclocked and doubled up on the GPU. It's going to be enhancing PS4 games til they stop making them and will make it cheaper to make for Sony, allowing for faster price cuts. This year it will definitely be dropping to $349, but there is a possibility Sony gets aggressive and launches a Pro Slim for $299. If so, we're going to see a nice boost in its sales for the coming months.  And I imagine once that thing hits $199, it will be making up ~40% of the PS4's sales.

Like I said, I don't expect the PS4 to beat the PS2, but I don't think we need to worry about its legs. Even after the arrival of the PS5. There's going to be a $250-$300 price gap between the two.  And probably a $150-$200 gap between it and the Pro.

You need to brush up your tech knowledge, otherwise you knew the bolded parts are not viable. They are possible, but require heavy subventionning, which is not what you want to do if your console is nearing EoL.

Prices for RAM Chips have basically doubled since summer last year, with no sign of slowing down or even getting cheaper again. Additionally, GDDR5 is based on DDR3, and the latter is already slowly getting phased out. This eliminates production capacities, risking to drive the price for it's RAM even higher. The RAM alone probably ain't too far of an 80$ pricetag righ now and it's rise is certainly in the way of any price reduction wishes from the console manufacturers to some degree.

The APU Chip in the PS4 ain't too small either, reducing the amount of Chips per wafer (microprocessing chips get purchased on a per wafer basis, so the more fit on one, the cheaper they are) and thus keeping it's price relatively high, though not near Cell regions. but tht one had the advantage of regular die shrinks, which the PS4 chip doesn't have.

Die Shrinks also reduce the power consumption, which allow for a smaller casing if the drop is substancial enough. It was from 28nm to 14nm for the Slim, but the Pro is already produced in 14 nm, and even Intel is having huge problems with their 10nm process, so this rules out a PS4 Pro slim or a PS4 Superslim for a forseeable future

All other parts don't change much in pricing, so they won't get much cheaper either. All in all, I don't see the PS4 dropping below 199$ anytime soon unless they want to subvention the console more strongly again.



It's fallen behind the Wii? There's absolutely no way it'll drop off as bad as that, but I feel as though it goes to show it won't end up anywhere near the goal that the PS2/DS posted. Especially considering it doesn't seem to be bombastically above the PS2 either. 100 million should come at some point assuredly, though.



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Aeolus451 said:
I hope that the PS4 at least matches the PS2 in sales. It beating the PS2 sales would be the icing on the cake with a cherry on it too.

55 million of PS2s sales came after PS3 launched, PS4 is not gonna have those legs. Sub $129-149 price point is gonna be hard to do I think.

Ljink96 said:
It's not going to beat it though. I know the evidence says otherwise, but remember it was the early to late 2000's PS2 was the cheapest DVD player on the market. I know a lot of family members that had one just to act as a DVD player. Although PS4 does Blu Ray, the demand for it isn't as high due to streaming services like Netflix. I think 95-100M LT, no way it's getting past that tbh.

PS2 didnt get to 157M because people wanted a cheap dvd player back in 2000, it kept on selling after PS3 because it was so cheap and affordable enough to continue selling in emerging markets. Launch aligned PS4 is beating PS2. Also VHS was still king in 2000, in 2002 I bought a dvd player for 50 euro or so.

PS4 is well on its way to do ~100M in just 6 years, it wont have PS2 legs but it also wont collapse like the PS3 did.

fleischr said:
But still falling behind the Wii in the same timeframe.

It's hard to say if PS4 will have the same life span as the PS2 and leg out just as well.

I think aligned next year is when Wii loses steam, not sure if it was 2010 or 2011 when it collapsed.



fleischr said:
But still falling behind the Wii in the same timeframe.

It's hard to say if PS4 will have the same life span as the PS2 and leg out just as well.

Eh falling behind the Wii for now but the Wii launched at nearly half the price, which is something that I don't think many people consider when comparing the two.



Bofferbrauer said:
thismeintiel said:

While I agree it won't match the PS2. Sony has done a couple of smart things to help its legs. For one, by using less custom chips, the price of the PS4 will be able to drop more in line with the PS2. The PS3 didn't drop to $249 til it's 5th year on the market. PS4 will hit that this year, its 4th. He'll, it may even see a cut to $199.  A cut that happened so late in the PS3's lifespan, it made little difference.  That $199 price came along with the launch of the PS4. When the PS5 comes, the PS4 will most likely be $149, with an actual chance Sony can get it down to $99-$129.  That'll do wonders for its legs.

Then, you have the Pro, which uses the same chips as the PS4, only overclocked and doubled up on the GPU. It's going to be enhancing PS4 games til they stop making them and will make it cheaper to make for Sony, allowing for faster price cuts. This year it will definitely be dropping to $349, but there is a possibility Sony gets aggressive and launches a Pro Slim for $299. If so, we're going to see a nice boost in its sales for the coming months.  And I imagine once that thing hits $199, it will be making up ~40% of the PS4's sales.

Like I said, I don't expect the PS4 to beat the PS2, but I don't think we need to worry about its legs. Even after the arrival of the PS5. There's going to be a $250-$300 price gap between the two.  And probably a $150-$200 gap between it and the Pro.

You need to brush up your tech knowledge, otherwise you knew the bolded parts are not viable. They are possible, but require heavy subventionning, which is not what you want to do if your console is nearing EoL.

Prices for RAM Chips have basically doubled since summer last year, with no sign of slowing down or even getting cheaper again. Additionally, GDDR5 is based on DDR3, and the latter is already slowly getting phased out. This eliminates production capacities, risking to drive the price for it's RAM even higher. The RAM alone probably ain't too far of an 80$ pricetag righ now and it's rise is certainly in the way of any price reduction wishes from the console manufacturers to some degree.

The APU Chip in the PS4 ain't too small either, reducing the amount of Chips per wafer (microprocessing chips get purchased on a per wafer basis, so the more fit on one, the cheaper they are) and thus keeping it's price relatively high, though not near Cell regions. but tht one had the advantage of regular die shrinks, which the PS4 chip doesn't have.

Die Shrinks also reduce the power consumption, which allow for a smaller casing if the drop is substancial enough. It was from 28nm to 14nm for the Slim, but the Pro is already produced in 14 nm, and even Intel is having huge problems with their 10nm process, so this rules out a PS4 Pro slim or a PS4 Superslim for a forseeable future

All other parts don't change much in pricing, so they won't get much cheaper either. All in all, I don't see the PS4 dropping below 199$ anytime soon unless they want to subvention the console more strongly again.

Some of that makes no sense.  Just because one tech is based on another does not mean that a manufacturer will stop making the newer tech when they stop production of the old. As for RAM, we are just at a point when demand is outpacing supply, hence the increasing prices.  It happens in all markets from time to to time.  It's not something that is going to last forever.  And we'll see how AMD fares with its drop to 7nm in 2018/19.

Sony will always find a way to decrease the price of their systems.  They may even choose to make only a slight profit on the HW or, at worst, break even.  They'll easily make up for it with game purchases.  Even the PS3 eventually got down to $149 late in its life.  The PS4 will get there sooner.  So, see you in 2019 when we have a $149 PS4.

Johnw1104 said:
thismeintiel said:

For PS5, I think they are going to do a standard console leap, however, it will only be that in comparison to the OG PS4.  I've been saying something along the lines of a Ryzen 1700 and a Vega 10 for the GPU.  That would give you about a 6x-6.5x leap (11-12Tflops vs 1.84) over the OG PS4, in terms of GPU, plus a much better CPU.  Sure, that's only like a 2.5x-3x leap over the Pro, but that's to be expected with these mid-gen refreshes.  If Sony keeps going with those refreshes, we're going to see something like a 22-25Tflops PS5 Pro.  I think at that point, we can kiss checkerboarding goodbye.

So, that would still put the PS5 to be here by late 2019.  I don't think Sony wants to prolong this gen any longer than 6 years, which is around the normal time for a gen to last.  Tech just moves so quickly.  Sure, consoles hang around much longer because of the cost benefits, but there's still a limit to how long console gamers want to wait for the next gen.  Last gen, 7 years (8 for the 360) seemed like an eternity, with people begging for new HW at the end.  A lot of that had to do with Sony and MS wanting to make up for some of the money they lost at the beginning of the gen.  This gen, however, doesn't pose that problem, as the PS4 HW was profitable only months after launching.  I imagine the XBO wasn't too far behind.

And yea, lol at all those "consoles are dead" threads/articles.  I'm sure we'll get them in 2019, when we get closer to next gen.  Then, they'll fade away until it's time for the following gen.

That seems very possible, but it does introduce a couple of complications. I think they'd, at the very least, need to allow for the PS4 Pro to receive scaled down PS5 games for the first year or two as is often typical over the last few years for a couple of reasons:

1.) Making PS4 Pro owners feel they got their money's worth

2.) (This one is quite important) Making 3rd party devs and such willing to provide games for the PS5 that take at least some advantage of the upgraded hardware while being able to tap into that enormous PS4 market, as 3rd party devs are always more interested in the previous gen than the new one for the first year or two (more potential for sales)

The scenario we're describing here could make it more difficult for 3rd party devs to develop games which both take advantage of the new hardware but also can meet their profit potential by porting to the PS4, the original being far less powerful at that point.

The solution (in my mind) would be to focus on the ports of the first couple years being compatible only with the PS4 Pro. This would allow them to be more ambitious with their PS5 versions while still profiting from what should be a huge number of (by then) PS4 Pro players, all the while simultaneously allowing PS4 Pro owners to feel they got their money's worth by providing an additional year or two of support. I can say personally that, as a person with an OG PS4, I would feel satisfied with what I received by 2019, but as someone who is planning to get the Pro this holiday season I'd like to see support for more than a couple years (the hardware is strong enough to justify it).

That's how it would ideally work out for me, anyway. Outside of that, I'd like to see the Switch offer an upgrade in a couple of years in which only the tablet itself is swapped (allowing for a much lower price without the joycons/dock/adaptor/memory stick etc), which could allow it to keep pace without requiring a huge consumer investment over the next six or so years. As opposed to this recent launch, it appears they'll probably have the luxury to time their next release better with the development of improved processors and batteries, so it should be capable of more bang for the buck as well.

Finally, as for how to count mid gen tiers, I don't have much problem with combining the sales of original models and later upgrades, as it's something we've been doing with Nintendo's handhelds for years now. I think it'd be pretty awesome if the PS4 winds up with enormous sales and the Switch/Xbox1 both clear 50 million or more, as it'd be pretty funny to post those final numbers from what was supposed to be the last legit console gen to some of those "Consoles are doomed" threads lol

Well, there are going to be a lot of cross gen games for the first couple of years of the PS5's life, so I think Pro owners will get their money's worth.  Also, most devs either have smaller teams that work on ports for the older consoles or they outsource the ports to other studios, which means the the main dev teams shouldn't have any problem pushing the new systems.

It will be interesting to see how Nintendo handles their mid-gen refresh, something they have always done with their  HH consoles.  Will they choose to do a slight upgrade, like the DSi and N3DS, or do a larger one, more in line with the Pro and Scorpio.  Either way, I hope they adopt what Sony and MS are doing and allow all games to work with both systems, just with fewer graphical bells and whistles on the base Switch.  I know the DSi and N3DS only have a few games that work only on them, but it still sucks.



Turkish said:
Ljink96 said:
It's not going to beat it though. I know the evidence says otherwise, but remember it was the early to late 2000's PS2 was the cheapest DVD player on the market. I know a lot of family members that had one just to act as a DVD player. Although PS4 does Blu Ray, the demand for it isn't as high due to streaming services like Netflix. I think 95-100M LT, no way it's getting past that tbh.

PS2 didnt get to 157M because people wanted a cheap dvd player back in 2000, it kept on selling after PS3 because it was so cheap and affordable enough to continue selling in emerging markets. Launch aligned PS4 is beating PS2. Also VHS was still king in 2000, in 2002 I bought a dvd player for 50 euro or so.

PS4 is well on its way to do ~100M in just 6 years, it wont have PS2 legs but it also wont collapse like the PS3 did.

fleischr said:
But still falling behind the Wii in the same timeframe.

It's hard to say if PS4 will have the same life span as the PS2 and leg out just as well.

I think aligned next year is when Wii loses steam, not sure if it was 2010 or 2011 when it collapsed.

Yea, the "DVD player myth" is gettting old.  PS2 helped DVD become the success it was, not the other way around.  People who bought the PS2 to play video games also bought DVDs.  Were there some who bought it just as a DVD player?  Sure.  But that was an extremely small number.  And like you said, DVD player prices dropped quite quickly.  By the time the PS2 launched, you could get a cheaper one for like $150.

As for the Wii, according to VGC, its peak year was 2008, just two years in, with 24.2M.  The next two years saw a slower decline, but it was obvious the interest was dying, with 21.3M in 2009 and 17.3M in 2010.  In 2011, it plummeted nearly 6M to 11.5M.  And in 2012, it was just 5.1M.



Ljink96 said:
It's not going to beat it though. I know the evidence says otherwise, but remember it was the early to late 2000's PS2 was the cheapest DVD player on the market. I know a lot of family members that had one just to act as a DVD player. Although PS4 does Blu Ray, the demand for it isn't as high due to streaming services like Netflix. I think 95-100M LT, no way it's getting past that tbh.

PS2 didnt get to 157M because people wanted a cheap dvd player back in 2000, it kept on selling after PS3 because it was so cheap and affordable enough to continue selling in emerging markets. Launch aligned PS4 is beating PS2. Also VHS was still king in 2000, in 2002 I bought a dvd player for 50 euro or so.

PS4 is well on its way to do ~100M in just 6 years, it wont have PS2 legs but it also wont collapse like the PS3 did.


If people bought it for games and because it was cheap, we'd see higher results in game software sales....which we don't.  Just going off VGChartz alone, Wii which sold 57 million units less than PS2, the software sales are on par if not better than PS2s. Well, yeah Wii Sports was bundeld sure. But PS2 had bundles as well. But just to be fair, Xbox 360 also has toe to toe software sales not including digital. What I'm getting at is not everybody who bought a PS2 bought it for gaming. DVD was huge in the early 2000's hell, my dad was a manager of a blockbuster around that time, they couldn't fathom a entire film on a thin disc and DVD players were expensieve, until the PS2 came out especially in Japan.