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Forums - Politics Discussion - Europe- economy, immigrants, and a potential inspiration

For a while, we have seen some...passionate people say we should get rid of immigrants and stop integration. After all, they're responsible for the issues we see in Europe, right?

Well, it's a yes and no.

I certainly will not doubt that some immigrants/refugees aren't perfect (that is human nature). Unfortunately, some of them take advantage of welfare systems or try to abuse their freedom to restrict the freedom of others. However, it seems like people think we only have the options to accept all of them or deport them all. 

We don't need any of that. Just looking at Minnesota and we see very similar problems:

1. Stagnant economy

2. High amounts of immigrants.

3. Had issues with labor force.

4. Minimum wage was not suitable for many.

http://tcbmag.com/News/Recent-News/2017/February/How-Minnesota-s-Success-Is-Dependent-On-Immigrants

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/06/24/biggest-state-economic-turnaround-story-minnesota.html

These articles showed that the state I live in wasn't exactly the most gorgeous place for the past five years. With a very high amount of Somalis too, I am sure many people probably thought Minnesota will turn into a wasteland.

Thankfully, the opposite happened. So, what gives? They went from having a several billion dollar deficit to having one of the fastest growing economies in the US. Higher taxes (with big increases on the rich)? We benefited! Unlike the poor regions of other major cities, you won't have to worry about being shot in the poor regions of the Twin Cities. We have many things such as constantly improved roads, which are vital for a very snowy/rainy state. We are also one of the happiest and kindest states. Minnesota also features a lot in terms of scenery, with 10,000 lakes and unbelievably gorgeous forests.

We are always overlooked, and I wonder why? We turned ourselves around, and yet it seems like some people believe their agendas will magically turn Europe into a powerhouse. 

We have a Somali population of around 80k, many of them refugees. You know how bad the terrorism issue is? Only 1 mass stabbing occurred in St. Cloud, and one incident of around 20 men plotting to join ISIS have happened in the past several years. Why do we have little problems with highly religious people? 

The answer is rather simple- we carefully admit refugees. You gain nothing from denying immigrants and refugees- after all, us Minnesotans can thank them for increasing our diversity and economy. Managing immigrants/refugees who enter is what makes problems or solutions. I think the extremists who go as far as to say we should kick out all non-natives are really taking it too far (along with those who call for completely open borders). Both of those are unnecessary- simply taking better control around this issue will prevent these things from happening. 

 

Minnesota wasn't a perfect state not too long ago- in the span of a few years though, the improvements have turned it into a top 10 state easily. Eco friendly, politically moderate, lack of police issues, and so many more good things (such as):

1. 1.7 people killed per 100,000, 7th lowest in country

2. One of the fastest growing economies

3. Many religious communities throughout the cities.

4. Support for bikers and those who don't use cars.

5. Decent population density (not too high or low)

6. Lack of issues with immigrants.

7. Good public schools.

 

 

I can go on, but i am not trying to turn into an advertiser for trips to Minnesota :P

I am also not trying to bash anyone for having a certain opinion- I gain nothing from insulting someone or acting superior.

I just thought it's worth having people taking a look at Minnesota's revival, especially for those who are conservative. If immigrants in Europe had as little issues as in Minnesota, will they still dislike them?

 

Edit: I know I said I don't wanna sound like self advertisement, but let me just tell you that Minnesota is simply badass. I will probably never find a state better than it. Simply put, the current condition it is in has simply allowed so many people to finally live happy lives. I am really appreciative of Minnesota's effort to turn the state into something greater. I hope any state struggling bounces back up as well as MN.



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Good story, but nothing beats Texas, we have trucks with balls!!!

High taxes on the rich and kind people.Are you guys sure you're not Canadian?



Kirin_gaming said:
Good story, but nothing beats Texas, we have trucks with balls!!!

High taxes on the rich and kind people.Are you guys sure you're not Canadian?

I guess we're the Canadian version of the US (although not as liberal as Canada).



monocle_layton said:

For a while, we have seen some...passionate people say we should get rid of immigrants and stop integration. After all, they're responsible for the issues we see in Europe, right?

Well, it's a yes and no.

I certainly will not doubt that some immigrants/refugees aren't perfect (that is human nature). Unfortunately, some of them take advantage of welfare systems or try to abuse their freedom to restrict the freedom of others. However, it seems like people think we only have the options to accept all of them or deport them all. 

We don't need any of that. Just looking at Minnesota and we see very similar problems:

1. Stagnant economy

2. High amounts of immigrants.

3. Had issues with labor force.

4. Minimum wage was not suitable for many.

http://tcbmag.com/News/Recent-News/2017/February/How-Minnesota-s-Success-Is-Dependent-On-Immigrants

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/06/24/biggest-state-economic-turnaround-story-minnesota.html

These articles showed that the state I live in wasn't exactly the most gorgeous place for the past five years. With a very high amount of Somalis too, I am sure many people probably thought Minnesota will turn into a wasteland.

Thankfully, the opposite happened. So, what gives? They went from having a several billion dollar deficit to having one of the fastest growing economies in the US. Higher taxes (with big increases on the rich)? We benefited! Unlike the poor regions of other major cities, you won't have to worry about being shot in the poor regions of the Twin Cities. We have many things such as constantly improved roads, which are vital for a very snowy/rainy state. We are also one of the happiest and kindest states. Minnesota also features a lot in terms of scenery, with 10,000 lakes and unbelievably gorgeous forests.

We are always overlooked, and I wonder why? We turned ourselves around, and yet it seems like some people believe their agendas will magically turn Europe into a powerhouse. 

We have a Somali population of around 80k, many of them refugees. You know how bad the terrorism issue is? Only 1 mass stabbing occurred in St. Cloud, and one incident of around 20 men plotting to join ISIS have happened in the past several years. Why do we have little problems with highly religious people? 

The answer is rather simple- we carefully admit refugees. You gain nothing from denying immigrants and refugees- after all, us Minnesotans can thank them for increasing our diversity and economy. Managing immigrants/refugees who enter is what makes problems or solutions. I think the extremists who go as far as to say we should kick out all non-natives are really taking it too far (along with those who call for completely open borders). Both of those are unnecessary- simply taking better control around this issue will prevent these things from happening. 

 

Minnesota wasn't a perfect state not too long ago- in the span of a few years though, the improvements have turned it into a top 10 state easily. Eco friendly, politically moderate, lack of police issues, and so many more good things (such as):

1. 1.7 people killed per 100,000, 7th lowest in country

2. One of the fastest growing economies

3. Many religious communities throughout the cities.

4. Support for bikers and those who don't use cars.

5. Decent population density (not too high or low)

6. Lack of issues with immigrants.

7. Good public schools.

 

 

I can go on, but i am not trying to turn into an advertiser for trips to Minnesota :P

I am also not trying to bash anyone for having a certain opinion- I gain nothing from insulting someone or acting superior.

I just thought it's worth having people taking a look at Minnesota's revival, especially for those who are conservative. If immigrants in Europe had as little issues as in Minnesota, will they still dislike them?

 

Edit: I know I said I don't wanna sound like self advertisement, but let me just tell you that Minnesota is simply badass. I will probably never find a state better than it. Simply put, the current condition it is in has simply allowed so many people to finally live happy lives. I am really appreciative of Minnesota's effort to turn the state into something greater. I hope any state struggling bounces back up as well as MN.

I would just like to point out that Germany, for example, has:

 

1. a murder rate of less than 1 per 100 000;

2. A very robust economy, considering that population is actually declining, a fair economic growth;

3. ? They do have a fairly powerful religious system, mostly doing charity, but I don't see that as a strict positive.

4. A wide and well-maintained network of pure bike tracks across the country

5. An extremely decentralized population; No real crowding problems, but everyone still has easy access to both culture and any essential facilities

6. Some social tension because of the immigration, admitadely. However, I would argue that this has more to do with perception of the situation than actual consequences.

7.Good, free, education, all the way to Univeristy (though I would like to mention that the quality of the Technical Studies is probably what is more remarkable in Germany. The Universitys are never bad, but only a couple can hold up with the american elite. But, it's free.)



Bet with PeH: 

I win if Arms sells over 700 000 units worldwide by the end of 2017.

Bet with WagnerPaiva:

 

I win if Emmanuel Macron wins the french presidential election May 7th 2017.

palou said:
monocle_layton said:

For a while, we have seen some...passionate people say we should get rid of immigrants and stop integration. After all, they're responsible for the issues we see in Europe, right?

Well, it's a yes and no.

I certainly will not doubt that some immigrants/refugees aren't perfect (that is human nature). Unfortunately, some of them take advantage of welfare systems or try to abuse their freedom to restrict the freedom of others. However, it seems like people think we only have the options to accept all of them or deport them all. 

We don't need any of that. Just looking at Minnesota and we see very similar problems:

1. Stagnant economy

2. High amounts of immigrants.

3. Had issues with labor force.

4. Minimum wage was not suitable for many.

http://tcbmag.com/News/Recent-News/2017/February/How-Minnesota-s-Success-Is-Dependent-On-Immigrants

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/06/24/biggest-state-economic-turnaround-story-minnesota.html

These articles showed that the state I live in wasn't exactly the most gorgeous place for the past five years. With a very high amount of Somalis too, I am sure many people probably thought Minnesota will turn into a wasteland.

Thankfully, the opposite happened. So, what gives? They went from having a several billion dollar deficit to having one of the fastest growing economies in the US. Higher taxes (with big increases on the rich)? We benefited! Unlike the poor regions of other major cities, you won't have to worry about being shot in the poor regions of the Twin Cities. We have many things such as constantly improved roads, which are vital for a very snowy/rainy state. We are also one of the happiest and kindest states. Minnesota also features a lot in terms of scenery, with 10,000 lakes and unbelievably gorgeous forests.

We are always overlooked, and I wonder why? We turned ourselves around, and yet it seems like some people believe their agendas will magically turn Europe into a powerhouse. 

We have a Somali population of around 80k, many of them refugees. You know how bad the terrorism issue is? Only 1 mass stabbing occurred in St. Cloud, and one incident of around 20 men plotting to join ISIS have happened in the past several years. Why do we have little problems with highly religious people? 

The answer is rather simple- we carefully admit refugees. You gain nothing from denying immigrants and refugees- after all, us Minnesotans can thank them for increasing our diversity and economy. Managing immigrants/refugees who enter is what makes problems or solutions. I think the extremists who go as far as to say we should kick out all non-natives are really taking it too far (along with those who call for completely open borders). Both of those are unnecessary- simply taking better control around this issue will prevent these things from happening. 

 

Minnesota wasn't a perfect state not too long ago- in the span of a few years though, the improvements have turned it into a top 10 state easily. Eco friendly, politically moderate, lack of police issues, and so many more good things (such as):

1. 1.7 people killed per 100,000, 7th lowest in country

2. One of the fastest growing economies

3. Many religious communities throughout the cities.

4. Support for bikers and those who don't use cars.

5. Decent population density (not too high or low)

6. Lack of issues with immigrants.

7. Good public schools.

 

 

I can go on, but i am not trying to turn into an advertiser for trips to Minnesota :P

I am also not trying to bash anyone for having a certain opinion- I gain nothing from insulting someone or acting superior.

I just thought it's worth having people taking a look at Minnesota's revival, especially for those who are conservative. If immigrants in Europe had as little issues as in Minnesota, will they still dislike them?

 

Edit: I know I said I don't wanna sound like self advertisement, but let me just tell you that Minnesota is simply badass. I will probably never find a state better than it. Simply put, the current condition it is in has simply allowed so many people to finally live happy lives. I am really appreciative of Minnesota's effort to turn the state into something greater. I hope any state struggling bounces back up as well as MN.

I would just like to point out that Germany, for example, has:

 

1. a murder rate of less than 1 per 100 000;

2. A very robust economy, considering that population is actually declining, a fair economic growth;

3. ? They do have a fairly powerful religious system, mostly doing charity, but I don't see that as a strict positive.

4. A wide and well-maintained network of pure bike tracks across the country

5. An extremely decentralized population; No real crowding problems, but everyone still has easy access to both culture and any essential facilities

6. Some social tension because of the immigration, admitadely. However, I would argue that this has more to do with perception of the situation than actual consequences.

7.Good, free, education, all the way to Univeristy (though I would like to mention that the quality of the Technical Studies is probably what is more remarkable in Germany. The Universitys are never bad, but only a couple can hold up with the american elite. But, it's free.)

If that is the case, then why do we constantly hear about Europe supposedly declining and suffering from immigrants?



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monocle_layton said:
palou said:

I would just like to point out that Germany, for example, has:

 

1. a murder rate of less than 1 per 100 000;

2. A very robust economy, considering that population is actually declining, a fair economic growth;

3. ? They do have a fairly powerful religious system, mostly doing charity, but I don't see that as a strict positive.

4. A wide and well-maintained network of pure bike tracks across the country

5. An extremely decentralized population; No real crowding problems, but everyone still has easy access to both culture and any essential facilities

6. Some social tension because of the immigration, admitadely. However, I would argue that this has more to do with perception of the situation than actual consequences.

7.Good, free, education, all the way to Univeristy (though I would like to mention that the quality of the Technical Studies is probably what is more remarkable in Germany. The Universitys are never bad, but only a couple can hold up with the american elite. But, it's free.)

If that is the case, then why do we constantly hear about Europe supposedly declining and suffering from immigrants?

Because people are morons, and sensationalism is the easiest thing to sell for the media. People don't turn on the TV if the news just says "everything is fine." Outside of the whole refugee thing, Germany is exceptionnaly stable - no massive economic boosts, but the country also feels crisis or crahes to a lesser extent (both being result of the high diveristy of german industry.) That's boring.

 

The arrival of refugees has not put a significant dent in any mesure that would verify quality of life. It perhaps has slowed down progress in certain areas, but stuff like violence, permanent unemployment, etc... is still lower than it was 5 or 10 years ago.



Bet with PeH: 

I win if Arms sells over 700 000 units worldwide by the end of 2017.

Bet with WagnerPaiva:

 

I win if Emmanuel Macron wins the french presidential election May 7th 2017.

monocle_layton said:
palou said:

I would just like to point out that Germany, for example, has:

 

1. a murder rate of less than 1 per 100 000;

2. A very robust economy, considering that population is actually declining, a fair economic growth;

3. ? They do have a fairly powerful religious system, mostly doing charity, but I don't see that as a strict positive.

4. A wide and well-maintained network of pure bike tracks across the country

5. An extremely decentralized population; No real crowding problems, but everyone still has easy access to both culture and any essential facilities

6. Some social tension because of the immigration, admitadely. However, I would argue that this has more to do with perception of the situation than actual consequences.

7.Good, free, education, all the way to Univeristy (though I would like to mention that the quality of the Technical Studies is probably what is more remarkable in Germany. The Universitys are never bad, but only a couple can hold up with the american elite. But, it's free.)

If that is the case, then why do we constantly hear about Europe supposedly declining and suffering from immigrants?

Statistically, you are safer in Germany than in the United States by pretty much any measure (less intentional violence, less car crashes, a stronger social net to secure yourself from misfortune, etc...)



Bet with PeH: 

I win if Arms sells over 700 000 units worldwide by the end of 2017.

Bet with WagnerPaiva:

 

I win if Emmanuel Macron wins the french presidential election May 7th 2017.

palou said:
monocle_layton said:

If that is the case, then why do we constantly hear about Europe supposedly declining and suffering from immigrants?

Statistically, you are safer in Germany than in the United States by pretty much any measure (less intentional violence, less car crashes, a stronger social net to secure yourself from misfortune, etc...)

Don't tell them! Do you want even more violent immigrants?



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

I certainly wouldn't consider myself to be the American conception of "liberal", but I'm certainly exceedingly pro-immigration; heck, I think we ought to simply have an open door. Immigration is enormously beneficial in the long term, a fact that I'm really rather floored we STILL haven't caught on to here in the states given, you know, it's basically why we're here in the first place.

Of course, for social issues I'm mostly closer to the left as well... the two party system really isn't working for me lately.



Yeah! Let's take in people from uncivilized areas to be exploited here instead of establishing a colony! Their presence won't cause any trouble. Islamism is a meme.
fuckin neo-imperialism