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PS4 Neo presentation leaked

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bunchanumbers said:
DonFerrari said:

PS4 had nothing of it and yet sold a lot more... so?

You are surely assuming a lot. So since speculation is useless we can only go for the "real" differences.

If Sony start producing the same tecnology 1 year earlier they will have bigger improvements in cost.

If the power and frequency of the chip is smaller they will have better output rates on the dies.

By being a litle weaker it will drain less power, generate less heat, probably be smaller and cheaper as well (including power supply and cooling system).

 

All you put isn't exactly smaller cost but smaller margins or negative margins, so final price could be small for MS, but cost won't.

MS pretty much destroyed themselves with the DRM fiasco and ps4 does have a power advantage. Plus Sony had that brilliant launch advertising campaign. The one with the crowds and the girl who said 'All my friends who are gamers own Playstation.' Followed with Greatness Awaits. It was a masterclass in marketing. I fully expect them to do it again. Its why I said it could be 2 hamsters. Sony has a year and a good marketing team. Neo will sell millions.

Power have never been an important factor for the mass market... sw available and price point were much more important so far, ps4 being more powerfull was a coincidence when they also were cheaper and better supported, so I see no reason for sony to hide and fear because of a weak hw.

Pemalite said:
bunchanumbers said:

MS pretty much destroyed themselves with the DRM fiasco and ps4 does have a power advantage. Plus Sony had that brilliant launch advertising campaign. The one with the crowds and the girl who said 'All my friends who are gamers own Playstation.' Followed with Greatness Awaits. It was a masterclass in marketing. I fully expect them to do it again. Its why I said it could be 2 hamsters. Sony has a year and a good marketing team. Neo will sell millions.

Neo had better sell millions otherwise it will look like a flop.

I would like to see Microsoft (And Nintendo!) match Sony in terms of sales, even if it is an uphill battle as competition is good for all consumers.

DonFerrari said:

PS4 had nothing of it and yet sold a lot more... so?

You are surely assuming a lot. So since speculation is useless we can only go for the "real" differences.

If Sony start producing the same tecnology 1 year earlier they will have bigger improvements in cost.

If the power and frequency of the chip is smaller they will have better output rates on the dies.

By being a litle weaker it will drain less power, generate less heat, probably be smaller and cheaper as well (including power supply and cooling system).

 

All you put isn't exactly smaller cost but smaller margins or negative margins, so final price could be small for MS, but cost won't.

I was using the assumptions to hone in on a point. - That no one truly knows where Neo or Scorpio is going to land in terms of performance and price, except AMD as they are the only entity who can see over both sides of the fence.
All we have are rumors, which should always be taken with a grain of salt untill legitimate information comes out from Microsoft/Sony.

We have no information on performance, die sizes, yields, clocks, ram capacities, price, nothing.
For all we know Scorpio is using an extremely small chip but with a super high clock rate which makes it cheaper to produce than the Neo.

One thing we know for certain though is that fabrication is constantly improving.
Sony and Microsoft will likely both be using Global Foundries as that is where the bulk of AMD's deals lay at the moment.
That means whatever AMD and Global foundries learn about fabricating the Neo SoC will also be applied to Scorpio.

Remember, Sony and Microsoft are not allowed to deal with these chips at a low-level only AMD and it's Fab partners, so whatever improvements are made at the fab level tend to apply to everyone.

It's kinda of pointless to arguee on rumours putting all good points in favor of one side and the other having only negatives. You aren't talking about a big company and a nobody (so that you could apply that only one of them know what they are doing).

We already have the processing capacity and architeture of Scorpio and the rumoured for Neo. If both uses the same architeture and Scorpio is an overclocked version and Neo an undercloked one of the same chip then either one is smaller than the other, or will have more failures to produce and consume more power. So unless you think MS system will run on unicorn rainbow and Sony on pigs fart them you can't seriously give MS smaller chip, higher processing, less consumption, higher die output success and cheaper to produce. It doesn't make sense in any way.

And worse yet you want MS chip to be totally different than Sony and still use improvements on the fabrication process... are you that pushing for a wish situation that MS put something magical when they come from RROD and a oversized console?

no, not all improvements apply to everyone. The chips may be similar, but there will be differences in setup and configuration, so not all improvements will carry over. And considering bulk production and cost of setup if Sony have 1 year lead to production and keep leading after Scorpio release Sony will always have a cheaper production on similar architeture.

I respect your knowledge on computation, but your scenario in this one is so one sided that would only work in the bizarro world and on "it could happen impossible situation".

Lafiel said:
Pemalite said:

I was using the assumptions to hone in on a point. - That no one truly knows where Neo or Scorpio is going to land in terms of performance and price, except AMD as they are the only entity who can see over both sides of the fence.
All we have are rumors, which should always be taken with a grain of salt untill legitimate information comes out from Microsoft/Sony.

We have no information on performance, die sizes, yields, clocks, ram capacities, price, nothing.
For all we know Scorpio is using an extremely small chip but with a super high clock rate which makes it cheaper to produce than the Neo.

One thing we know for certain though is that fabrication is constantly improving.
Sony and Microsoft will likely both be using Global Foundries as that is where the bulk of AMD's deals lay at the moment.
That means whatever AMD and Global foundries learn about fabricating the Neo SoC will also be applied to Scorpio.

Remember, Sony and Microsoft are not allowed to deal with these chips at a low-level only AMD and it's Fab partners, so whatever improvements are made at the fab level tend to apply to everyone.

only if at the end they have more chips that pass the quality check per wafer - "super high clock rate" surely has a significant influence on how many of the chips per wafer are substandard for use in scorpio

I think pema is just wanting to point that "anything is possible"



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

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JoeTheBro said:
Sony fans, stop caring about Scorpio beating PS Neo power.

You're just setting yourselves up for potential disappointment.

Disappointed when it doesn't get beaten?



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

DonFerrari said:

We already have the processing capacity and architeture of Scorpio and the rumoured for Neo. I think pema is just wanting to point that "anything is possible"

No, we know absolutely nothing about the architectures of either machine. Although people "in the know" can make educated guesses.

And no again, "anything is NOT possible". People "NOT in the know", like this perma entity, can obviously not make educated guesses.

What we know from various overclocker reports is that RX480 power draw goes through the roof if you overclock it too much (and "too much" starts VERY early in the process). So any talk of a "superclocked RX480 in the Scorpio" can only come from a clueless fanboy.

 

And I am not even sure that MS currently knows what a Scorpio will be. That 6TF number was all too conveniently pulled out of the hat, knowing that a NEO would not be reaching 5TF using an RX480 due to power constraints.



drkohler said:
DonFerrari said:

We already have the processing capacity and architeture of Scorpio and the rumoured for Neo. I think pema is just wanting to point that "anything is possible"

No, we know absolutely nothing about the architectures of either machine. Although people "in the know" can make educated guesses.

And no again, "anything is NOT possible". People "NOT in the know", like this perma entity, can obviously not make educated guesses.

What we know from various overclocker reports is that RX480 power draw goes through the roof if you overclock it too much (and "too much" starts VERY early in the process). So any talk of a "superclocked RX480 in the Scorpio" can only come from a clueless fanboy.

 

And I am not even sure that MS currently knows what a Scorpio will be. That 6TF number was all too conveniently pulled out of the hat, knowing that a NEO would not be reaching 5TF using an RX480 due to power constraints.

We know some... AMD isn't working on a multitude of chips and technologies, both companies use it and seem to keep the philosophy of current consoles, so they will probably end up using similar architetures, so we can't expect one to be much stronger than the other and COST the same (although it can be sold cheaper if they want)



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

drkohler said:
Pemalite said:


1. We have no information on performance, die sizes, yields, clocks, ram capacities, price, nothing.
2. For all we know Scorpio is using an extremely small chip but with a super high clock rate which makes it cheaper to produce than the Neo.

ok. Explain how you got from point 1 to point 2. Give sources to point 2 as well.

I really want to know that.

You missed my point completely I see.

Lafiel said:

only if at the end they have more chips that pass the quality check per wafer - "super high clock rate" surely has a significant influence on how many of the chips per wafer are substandard for use in scorpio

Clock Rates aren't really directly attributed to yields.
Chips are designed to operate at a certain frequency at any given voltage.

Some chips can hit a lower voltage, others need higher, so what do you do? You be conservative so you can have as many chips as possible meet a certain clockrate.

Of course you also have different types of fabrication processes which allow for transisters to be ultra low power and a moderate clock, the opposite is true for that too of course.

The caveat though to using a chip with a higher clockrate is going to be voltage, not yields... And voltage has a direct relationship with power consumption and the heat generated by the chip as well.
But that can also be mitigated with a better cooling system.

The other issue is electromigration, but being only console levels of performance, won't be much of a drama anyway.

DonFerrari said:

It's kinda of pointless to arguee on rumours putting all good points in favor of one side and the other having only negatives. You aren't talking about a big company and a nobody (so that you could apply that only one of them know what they are doing).

We already have the processing capacity and architeture of Scorpio and the rumoured for Neo. If both uses the same architeture and Scorpio is an overclocked version and Neo an undercloked one of the same chip then either one is smaller than the other, or will have more failures to produce and consume more power. So unless you think MS system will run on unicorn rainbow and Sony on pigs fart them you can't seriously give MS smaller chip, higher processing, less consumption, higher die output success and cheaper to produce. It doesn't make sense in any way.

I'm just giving plausable possible scenario's, nothing that's based on legitimate information on these upcoming devices anyhow.

I have no doubt that the Neo will actually be a slower device with a lower price point than Scorpio, unless Microsoft is willing to eat the costs to shift more units.

DonFerrari said:
And worse yet you want MS chip to be totally different than Sony and still use improvements on the fabrication process... are you that pushing for a wish situation that MS put something magical when they come from RROD and a oversized console?


That's not what I am getting at all.


DonFerrari said:

no, not all improvements apply to everyone. The chips may be similar, but there will be differences in setup and configuration, so not all improvements will carry over. And considering bulk production and cost of setup if Sony have 1 year lead to production and keep leading after Scorpio release Sony will always have a cheaper production on similar architeture.

I respect your knowledge on computation, but your scenario in this one is so one sided that would only work in the bizarro world and on "it could happen impossible situation".

 

If the chips are designed by the same company (AMD) uses the same licensed technology (x86, HyperTransport, GCN etc'.), all fabbed at the same place (Global Foundries) then when it comes to the actual fabrication of the chips, then improvements will carry over.
Let's say Global foundries does a tweak to it's process which allows for better power characteristics or better patterning due to learning how the process works with the Neo, then that will apply to Microsoft's SoC as well. They are all using the same tools.

Of course that works in the reverse as well. If Global Foundries somehow manages to optimise it's fabrication whilst fabbing Scorpio, chances are it will also benefit Neo.

Of course Sony and Microsoft petition AMD for their own various touches and changes and such to the designs, which will have an impact... But overall, whoever has the smaller chip will have the cheaper manufacturing, to a point. - In some cases building a big chip on an old process can be cheaper than having it on a new process as an idle fab is wasted money and retooling a fab for a new process can cost billions, hence why Intel historically kept chipsets/eDRAM at an older fab, but CPU's on the latest to prolong the old fabs life, but that's not relevent when both chips are using the same process.

Also remember, Sony and Microsoft by law are not allowed to deal with the production of these chips.



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DonFerrari said:

It's kinda of pointless to arguee on rumours putting all good points in favor of one side and the other having only negatives. You aren't talking about a big company and a nobody (so that you could apply that only one of them know what they are doing).

We already have the processing capacity and architeture of Scorpio and the rumoured for Neo. If both uses the same architeture and Scorpio is an overclocked version and Neo an undercloked one of the same chip then either one is smaller than the other, or will have more failures to produce and consume more power. So unless you think MS system will run on unicorn rainbow and Sony on pigs fart them you can't seriously give MS smaller chip, higher processing, less consumption, higher die output success and cheaper to produce. It doesn't make sense in any way.

I'm just giving plausable possible scenario's, nothing that's based on legitimate information on these upcoming devices anyhow.

I have no doubt that the Neo will actually be a slower device with a lower price point than Scorpio, unless Microsoft is willing to eat the costs to shift more units.

How is it plausible that Scorpio is smaller, cheaper, more powerfull, with better yield, generate less heat, draw less power using the same architeture?

DonFerrari said:
And worse yet you want MS chip to be totally different than Sony and still use improvements on the fabrication process... are you that pushing for a wish situation that MS put something magical when they come from RROD and a oversized console?


That's not what I am getting at all.

That is what I'm getting with you picking all the pro to MS and cons to Sony, you are pushing for a favourable scenario for MS that doesn't sound remotely likely considering both companies consoles past history.

DonFerrari said:

no, not all improvements apply to everyone. The chips may be similar, but there will be differences in setup and configuration, so not all improvements will carry over. And considering bulk production and cost of setup if Sony have 1 year lead to production and keep leading after Scorpio release Sony will always have a cheaper production on similar architeture.

I respect your knowledge on computation, but your scenario in this one is so one sided that would only work in the bizarro world and on "it could happen impossible situation".

 

If the chips are designed by the same company (AMD) uses the same licensed technology (x86, HyperTransport, GCN etc'.), all fabbed at the same place (Global Foundries) then when it comes to the actual fabrication of the chips, then improvements will carry over.
Let's say Global foundries does a tweak to it's process which allows for better power characteristics or better patterning due to learning how the process works with the Neo, then that will apply to Microsoft's SoC as well. They are all using the same tools.

Of course that works in the reverse as well. If Global Foundries somehow manages to optimise it's fabrication whilst fabbing Scorpio, chances are it will also benefit Neo.

Of course Sony and Microsoft petition AMD for their own various touches and changes and such to the designs, which will have an impact... But overall, whoever has the smaller chip will have the cheaper manufacturing, to a point. - In some cases building a big chip on an old process can be cheaper than having it on a new process as an idle fab is wasted money and retooling a fab for a new process can cost billions, hence why Intel historically kept chipsets/eDRAM at an older fab, but CPU's on the latest to prolong the old fabs life, but that's not relevent when both chips are using the same process.

Also remember, Sony and Microsoft by law are not allowed to deal with the production of these chips.

what law prevent them? I'm not aware of it.

general improvements will carry, but we are talking about customized chips so the differences between them will block a lot of the improvements being carried.

but explain to me how they using the same basic architeture would end up with ms having a smaller chip, with higher processing power and better yield?

Answer in bold.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

aLkaLiNE said:
His is outdated information that could or could not be indicative of what the Neo is now.

- this presentation was made before Scorpio announcement
- this presentation was completed before SCEI became SIE
- SCEI became SIE January 26, 2016. Again this presentation is OLD
- other tumors have circulated in the meantime that Sony had been playing with multiple different tiers of power for the Neo. I don't think that, given scorpions announcement, this presentation holds weight now

Just a little note: They became SIE on April 1st. Maybe they announced they were going to change on Jan 26th?



So what is the outcome? Fake or real. I've heard people strongly argue both sides.



DonFerrari said:
JoeTheBro said:
Sony fans, stop caring about Scorpio beating PS Neo power.

You're just setting yourselves up for potential disappointment.

Disappointed when it doesn't get beaten?

Disapointed when the outcome isn't what they want.

 

Expect PS4 Neo to be a potato, and then you're happy when the true power is announced. Alternatively if they expect Neo to be 20 teraflops, they're going to have a bad time.



SWORDF1SH said:
So what is the outcome? Fake or real. I've heard people strongly argue both sides.

no outcome yet and I expect we will only have good evidence for either side once the Neo is officially announced

these slides are pretty much 1:1 the info we got around march from Kotaku/Eurogamer, so I personally think this is what their sources saw (or on the other hands a very elaborated fake created from those infos)