If I remember correctly, we actually agreed that a significantly plant-based diet wa healthier for a modern human. The argument, and my comments, in context, relied more on if a significantly plant-based diet was necessarily "natural". The differences you can find between vegans/non-vegans, as stated by your studies, are mostly lower rates of heart diseases, cancer. That's however quite irrelevant whne analyzing the advent of civilization, as people generally died much too early to be affected by *any* of that. My argument was that a vegan diet can help us stay healthy for longer, but that that is relevant but in a modern context.

Also, that guy in the second video does NOT know how to source his stuff properly. His sources are good; they just don't say what he claims that they do. For the "mostly grains" thing, his articles either only claim specific cases, only claim existence of grains in the diet, not predominance, or both. 

There's no debate that many humans practice omnivorous behaviour, but given the reams of diet-related diseases (heart disease, diabetes, stroke, many cancers, etc.) that isn't necessarily any kind of an endorsement.

There is significant and growing debate about how omnivorous our bodies are.  We have short/blunt teeth, the ability to move our jaws side to side, no claws, and shorter intestines, all traits typical of herbivores.  If a human adopts a meat-only diet, they'll likely die of scurvy in a hurry.

Many ancient cultures were mostly, or even entirely, plant-based.  The plant-based cultures were often the longest-living ones.

You're perpetuating the big lie that meat is nutrient dense and plant-based foods nutrient-poor.  The truth is the opposite, plant-based foods have more nutrients per calorie and often a wider array of nutrients than animal-based foods.  Medicine?  Most medicines are synthesized from plants.  And 80% of our medical costs go to treat people with diet and lifestyle diseases that are caused by eating meat/dairy/eggs (and, to be fair, refined carbohydrates).  The truth is the opposite of what you've said on almost every point.

When I was an omnivore, and later when I was a pescetarian, I took a tonne of supplements to make up for the fact that I couldn't eat nearly as many nutrients as I can on a whole-food, plant-based diet.  Now I take no supplements at all, aside from vitamin D (and I only take that in the winter).

Given the higher rate of all-cause mortality for omnivores vs. vegans, you may well get your wish.

I discoverd that back in May some people had replied to me in this thread, and I simply hadn't realized it until today.  I didn't want to be rude, so I replied.  Whether it's a new thread or a very old one, no need to jump in for those who're not interested, I figured.

Either way, enjoy your casomorphins.  ;)  (https://yumuniverse.com/addiction-to-cheese-is-real-thanks-to-casomorphins/)

We did largely agree as I recall too.  However, there is evidence of gatherer-based societies that were mostly plant-based where it was common for people to live into their 70s (if the apparent age of their bones, hair, etc., at death is any indication).

And fair enough about the "mostly grains" thing, I'll dig into his sources a little more again, it's been a while since I read up on them.  I'll look at them through the lense you suggest and see where that leads me.  Thank you for your comments.  :)

My older brother went vegan recently. He lost a lot of weight.

This wasn't a good thing, as he was already in his "healthy weight zone". He lost a lot of muscle mass, despite being very active at his job (Electrician). He looks gangly and unhealthy now.

And before anyone chimes in with "he must not know how to be vegan": my sister-in-law is a souschef, and has managed to keep her body in a healthy state (she went vegan with him). He eats what she makes, and she makes healthy food that covers all bases. At the end of the day, mankind is omnivorous and we've evolved with as much in mind. Cutting out meat for some might work, but for many it can result in losing health, not gaining it.


Despite my hate for fish, I've always been a huge supporter of ovo-pescatarianism. Seafood and eggs for animal products, everything else follows vegan diet rules. The bonuses include:

Readily absorbed nutrients; many nutrients we need for our body can can obtained from plants, but the yield is much lower and requires vitamin supplements to make up for it. An example is vitamin A: yes, you can get it from kerotine, but the yield is low enough that a responsible dietician would recommend supplements instead. (Bonus Round: Do you have bad thyroids? Then kiss vitamin A goodbye if you're going to be a vegan, because you won't be able to convert it out of kerotine with bad thyroids)

Actual B12; you get B12 from a few things. Animals, animal biproducts, and... Dirt. So unless you're a fan of eating unwashed veggies, this is something you'll miss out on.

"Good" Protein; don't drink the Kool-Aid, kiddies, because the plant-based proteins you think are the same? They're not. They aren't as readily absorbed, and are just about as useless as trying to get Vitamin A out of kerotine. (Devil's Advocate Mode, Activate: While vegans don't get enough good protein, they do get enough protein. In fact, most people in America are getting too much protein)

Omegas; This is something that is almost exclusive to fish, so don't expect much of it elsewhere. You can get some from things like flaxseed, but as with most nutrients in plants, much of it is not readily absorbed.

And finally, not being full-on vegan means you can compensate with any multivitamins you want. That means no matter how unhealthy you are being, you can always override some of it with a supplement. Being vegan means you can't use most supplements, because guess where B12 supplements come from? Animals (for the overwhelming majority of options, anyway). Guess what you're probably going to be deficient on?

B12. Yay!

I live in Canada. Most of the year fruit and veggies come from far far away. I try to buy what's local which severly limits options for variation in vegetables and fruit. And nuts are rediculously expensive here imo. I don't eat meat every day, but some other animal products like eggs and cheese sure. 
My diet is fine I think, I wouldn't know I don't pay much attention to it. I'm in the best shape of my life thanks to regular excercise. I'm  rarely sick even with my young kids bringing all kinds of crap home from school, and if I get sick it usually only lasts a day. Don't fix what aint broken.

Btw you cited a study comparing deficiences between omnivours and vegans, both list cacium as a deficieny. Can't win! :p

A well balanced diet includes meat. You can eat meat and live a fitter, longer and healthier life than a vegetarian or vegan as long as you stay away from the absolute junk. Unprocessed lean meats, grilled, baked or only fry using rapeseed oil. I'm sure if vegans deep fried their foods it wouldn't be so healthy. Also it's not like there are not vegetarian/vegan foods that can be super unhealthy.

Just let people eat what they want to eat. (of course to a reasonable degree obviously). No one needs to be an omnivore, vegetarian or vegan. You can be any of the three and live healthy lives.

Will we ever see a Mr Olympia winner on a Vegan/Vegetarian diet? Get as jacked as Phil Heath, Jay Cutler, Ronnie Coleman, Dorian Yates, Lee Haney or Arnold off eating a plant based diet! 

There are too many variables to make anything from the anecdotal evidence of this one person you know who ended up underweight.  However, when doing population studies, only vegans on average end up in the ideal BMI zone.  Vegetarians on average are heavier than ideal, pescetarians worse still, omnivores heaviest/worst of all.  We can all point to exceptions that prove the rule such as this person you knew, but the rule is that vegans average in the ideal BMI zone and all other groups do not.

A big problem with being a pescetarian is that for generations we've used the oceans as a dumping ground for pollution, and we continue to do so.  Seafood are full of heavy metals, PCBs, and other fun things.  And like with mammals, fish don't create nutrients.  By eating fish you're choosing to filter your nutrients through third-parties, rather than going to the source.  If you want that kind of nutrient profile, you can get it by eating sea vegetables (seaweed, algae, etc.), which is what I do.  That way you can get virtually contaminant-free sources of those same nutrients.  With how polluted much of the world is getting, it's never been better to eat low on the food chain than it is these days.

If you're eating the rainbow, plant nutrients are just as bio-available as filtering them through the bodies of animals.  For example, vitamin C makes plant-based iron extremely absorbable.  Another example, black pepper increases the bio-availability of turmeric by about 2000%.  Many plant foods have more absorbable nutrients when cooked than they do raw (eg. spinach, carrots, etc.).  If you eat the rainbow, and mix it up when it comes to cooked vs. raw, then you'll probably do well even without doing any research.  A food plan makes things even better.  And no one needs a food plan more than these omnivores who keep suffering and/or dying of heart disease, diabetes, strokes, etc., so this is not something unique to a plant-based diet.

B12 arguments are self-defeating.  Unless you're eating animals who ate food on the ground themselves, those animals will also be B12 deficient.  They give B12 supplements to factory farmed animals, which is the overwhelming majority of meat that people eat.  We've made our soil so sterile of the bacteria that causes B12 that unless you're gardening and/or eating unwashed vegetables, you'll need supplemented B12.  Whether you get your B12 from a pill, or whether you filter that B12 through an animal to tie it up with a bunch of cholesterol, saturated fat, and animal feces, most people are getting supplemented B12 either way.  BTW, I do eat unwashed leafy greens, and if I made you a salad you wouldn't know they were unwashed.  Unwashed doesn't mean covered in dirt, they get rained on after all, and you can brush them off without washing them.  The important thing is to leave the bacteria on them, not to leave the dirt on them.  :)

As you say, the average person in the western world gets twice as much protein as is optimal for human health.  However, studies have shown that vegans and omnivores have nearly identical blood levels of proteins (in fact, most studies that show a statistically significant difference actually show vegans having higher blood levels of protein).  Only plants can take nitrogen out of the atmosphere and synthesize amino acids, so only plants can create "protein" (which isn't really a thing, but a category of things).

Omega 3 fatty acids aren't exclusive to fish.  Flax seed and chia, pound for pound, have way more omega 3s than fish.  And where do the fish get it from?  From algae, of course.  So your comments on this are demonstrably incorrect.  And the omega 3s in flaxseed are extremely well absorbed by the body, the arguments some people level again plant-based omega 3s are about the conversion rate, not the absorption, as there are three kinds of omega 3 fatty acids.  ALA is the kind found in a variety of plant foods.  DHA is the kind you find in algae.  EPA is a kind that animals convert ALA and DHA into.  The less DHA (and EPA) you consume, the better your conversion rate.  The more you consume, the less the conversion rate matters.  I consume a lot of ALA, and a small amount of DHA, and my omega 3 levels as a vegan are excellent.

What B12 supplement comes from animals?  B12 is a bacterial waste product.  Don't they just culture the bacteria to create the B12?  I did a quick web search and couldn't find anything that backed up your claim.  In any case, since B12 supplements are commonly marketed to vegans, it's effortless to get B12 supplements that are free of animal products.

As for multivitamins, I've never taken one and can't imagine why I would.  How does some multinational know what nutrients I need more of?  Besides, supplemented vitamins are often worse than taking no supplement at all.  A good example of this is vitamin C:  in its natural state in whole plant foods, vitamin C is an anti-oxidant (which you want it to be); vitamin C supplements, however, may have a pro-oxidant effect on the body (which you definitely DO NOT want).  So, no, you can't just be an omnivore and take a multivitamin and have a guarantee of health.

When I was an omnivore, and later when I was a pescetarian, I took a lot of supplements.  All of that meat, fish, dairy, and eggs were very low in nutrients per calorie, and I was trying to make up for that.  Now that I'm on a strictly plant-based diet (plus mushrooms, which technically aren't a plant), I get more nutrients per calorie, and the foods I eat have lower caloric density, and I eat the rainbow, so I get more nutrients (and a wider variety of nutrients) as a vegan.