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Peh said:
SvennoJ said:
Only an outside observer can accurately predict or rather see the future.

I'll just want to add something to this sentence here:

As long as this observer is not able to manipulate our universe, he will be able to see the future.

I came to the conclusion, that someone who can both, change the future and see it, won't be able to see the future he wants to change. He alone is the disturbance who makes it impossible to see it for himself.

That's simply because knowing the future, is what changes the future.

Unless a multiverse based (at minimum) on a Finite Curve exists within a singular continuum; then that person would be able to see all possible outcomes of all available choices.  That person's experiences would then be contained to a single pathway of causal action, yet the alternatives known and measurable.  Things get crazy by adding dimensions to our perception of Time and Space.



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Peh said:
deskpro2k3 said:

In the first place I wasn't even talking to you okay.. You just injected yourself.. You know the guy that comes over when you're talking to someone else and stands around until he can join the conversation? FYI, this little chitchat we had was just me not being rude to ignore you. There you have it.

If you want a private conversation use the pm system like everyone else. If you post in a public forum then be prepared to get answers you don't like. Simple as that. If you want to contribute something meanful to the topic then do it. But this pointless posts you did will help no one and it leads nowhere, princess.

 

Listen.. Regarding the statement I made that was directed to the OP, your reply to it was out of context. Now I have no idea why you're talking to me about organic matter and DNA, when my point was about free will and causality down to a quantum mechanical level. You know, I even told you something factual about carbon.

Now let me hit you with some knowledge, and this will be the last of it because I don't want to derail this thread because of you. If you don't understand something I post, next time just ask instead of injecting yourself. I don't mind explaining my thoughts, but if you're going to say I'm not helpful, and making pointless post, then all I have to say is pot calling the kettle black. causality.



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VXIII said:
SkepticallyMinded said:

The irony with you anti-scientific people is often times so profound that it boggles the mind wrestling with what it's like to maintain mutually exclusive perspectives simultaneously. 

You cannot on the same hand declare that non-human animals do not have consciousness while simultaneously maintaining the position that we don't have enough knowledge to assess the situation. Congratulations, you just contradicted your own position.

All of the evidence to date supports the idea that some non-human animals have consciousness, but I'm sure some nobody on the internet has it all figured out, nevermind the countless published science and plethora of scientists who agree.

That literally reads like nothing. It is a proven fact that animals don't have sense of morality, character, appreciation of beauty and art, sense of humor and so on despite having a complex brains. Just observe the wild life how it that not provable? you didn't answer any of my question about the complexity. Then you refer to some " published science" without actually discussing the ideas....  Huh.

I think it is safe to say this is the best time to end this empty cycle. I enjoyed the topic, especially Rol's posts

Rofl!

None of those things necessarily have anything to do with consciousness. Consciousness is merely self-awareness. It's quite clear that not only do you have absolutely no understanding of what consciousness is, but you seem to enjoy living oblivious to basic scientific facts.

We're clearly done here. Wow, just wow.



Free will is real to the extent that matters. If you look at it too deeply, it's not truly free, but that level isn't really relevant to everyday life.



padib said:
Teeqoz said:

Well sure, it is a lot harder to accept the truth sometime than to just go on with life as it always has been. But in the end, life isn't some romantical thing, feelings aren't "honest and pure" (whatever that means), love is just chemicals in your brain interacting in a certain way. But you don't have to believe in that. As I've stated earlier in this thread, this is a perfect example of the saying "ignorance is bliss".

And it's not like you have a choice anyway. Whatever you end up believing, you were predetermined to end up believing so to begin with

What I meant by honest and pure is that emotions can be faked. The human mind though is able to see very subtle hints of faking emotion.

To think that emotions are pre-programmed is something similar to faking emotions, it renders them artificial: a means to an end. But love in its purest form is selfless. Therefore there should be no way to say: that was just some robotic reaction to a stimulus.

I understand the science behind the material aspect of our thoughts (though synapses and chemicals), however it is a logical jump to then conclude we don't have free will. I like you agree that our brain is material, but I disagree that our choices are pre-determinable, and I doubt we will ever come to a point in science where we will be able to accurately predict the outcome of a person's thoughts 100% of the time.

Because I believe in free will, and I don't think that science right now disproves it in any way.

Though I did very much enjoy the topic, and your management of the thread, I hope you understand my point about the purpose of emotions such as love and laughter, the spontaneity of them and how it would be very contrary to the emotions themselves if they could somehow be predicted.

That's my two cents.

Ofcourse emotions can be predicted, reality tv excels in it :)

But love in its purest form is selfless. Therefore there should be no way to say: that was just some robotic reaction to a stimulus.

What is love in its purest form? And why would love being selfless rule out it being a robotic reaction to a stimulus.
The love of a mother for their child is very strong and selfless. My wife wishes she could turn it down a bit, always worrying about what might happen. I would jump in front of a car too for my kids, yet luckily I'm spared a bit of the physically sickening feelings when they're doing something slightly dangerous.

Selfless acts out of love are usually of a robotic or subconcious nature. Afterwards it's usually "I wasn't thinking about it, I just acted" Like this tragic story http://globalnews.ca/news/2770699/man-struck-killed-by-fallen-tree-branch-in-popular-toronto-park/ He threw himself over his wife while a branch came down. There could be no concious decision making process preceding that. Seems very robotic.



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PDF said:
I think the future, and Past all exist already. We just can only perceive what is in the present. Like watching a movie, all the scenes already exist.

As do I.  We experience Time one-dimensionally (forward), but if it is viewed from a three-dimensional perspective (like watching a movie), we are always being born, always living, always dying, always dead.  We have already made every decision we will ever make; it is now on us to understand these decisions in our own, limited way.



padib said:

I don't think it's robotic, because I would bet there are people who might not sacrifice themselves even for their SOs, as horrible as that might sound. I personally believe his reaction was cultivated over time, by all the small choices he made over time.

The reason for love is for people to connect with and protect each other in the most honest way, without any ill intent behind it. That's love in its purest form. If the emotion itself is artificial, it defeats the purpose of the emotions. Same goes with laughter, it conveys trust and belonging. If the emotion is just a fabrication, it completely betrays the purpose of the emotion.

You know your wife better than any of us could, better than I of course. But I would be that your wife is actually able to control her instinctive protection of her children, and moderate it for the happiness of her family. In that sense, she has a choice. And unfortunately, the idea that she can't help it would deter her from having the courage to follow a higher calling.

Many decisions I've made in the past for love betrayed my depest instincts. I have a strange story in that I was possessed with irrational thoughts that I needed to battle using reason and hope. I had to reinvent myself. Though everything in me believed that my instinct was right, the outcome of my instinct would lead me in very hateful thoughts and patterns. That's when I learned to overcome my instincts with reason.

Of course I can't tell you my life story in a few posts, but in my personal life, I have often had to make the very difficult choice of not listening to myself, to not trust myself, for the best of me and everyone around me. (worry not I'm better now) Having suffered from OCD, this was my battle. Choice and hope were tools I used to better myself.

I'm not sure what else to call it. Sure the bond was cultivated over time, yet concious thought was not of the order while reacting to the situation.

As a teenager I reasoned myself into deciding to end it all at one point, classic existensial nihilism. At certain times I truly felt like I was simply observing my body from the outside, not really there, detached. However although I rejected love, still love prevented me from going that far. Even though it wouldn't matter for me, it certainly would matter for everyone I knew and be devastating to my family. Was that free will?
Over the years I got better and started enjoying life. I can't say I used anything as noble as choice and hope, drugs and videogames were it until I found love and through it hope. Drugs brought back being open to my emotions (xtc) and through videogames I met my wife. Now I'm more bound by love than ever, no absolute freedom, yet happier than ever. Up to a point that is, focusing on the positives instead of the negatives is the trick. Not always easy ofcourse.

I don't know what love is. It all seems very pre-programmed when I think about it. Loneliness getting worse and worse until the mind latches on to another human being. Luckily it latched on to the right one :)

Anyway I'm glad I've never had to battle my instincts, just my mind. I can't imagine what that would be like.



of course it is to some extent, since no one chooses the environment they are born into and the environment plays a great part or perhaps the most significant part in shaping an individual and subsequently the choices they make

...just remember that the next time you "choose" to judge someone harshly for whatever reason

tell the 7 year old kid living in war torn iraq where his main priorities are finding food and water while you play your video games that he has free will



deskpro2k3 said:
Peh said:

If you want a private conversation use the pm system like everyone else. If you post in a public forum then be prepared to get answers you don't like. Simple as that. If you want to contribute something meanful to the topic then do it. But this pointless posts you did will help no one and it leads nowhere, princess.

 

Listen.. Regarding the statement I made that was directed to the OP, your reply to it was out of context. Now I have no idea why you're talking to me about organic matter and DNA, when my point was about free will and causality down to a quantum mechanical level. You know, I even told you something factual about carbon.

Now let me hit you with some knowledge, and this will be the last of it because I don't want to derail this thread because of you. If you don't understand something I post, next time just ask instead of injecting yourself. I don't mind explaining my thoughts, but if you're going to say I'm not helpful, and making pointless post, then all I have to say is pot calling the kettle black. causality.

Too bad that I was the only one in this thread who actually cared of responding to you. Now I understand why. Is this how you deal with every other member on this forum?

Do you actually even know what out of context means? I tried to understand where you wanted to go with that post of yours, but it seems you don't know it for yourself.

My first sentence in that response was: "What do you expect to find there?" So, wasn't I asking you? Where is the response to this? How can you go and tell me, I shoud ask you next time if I actually did? Kind of dishonest from you.

Now let me take a "deeper" look at your first post and make a comparision to what you've said in your last.

So, our brain is made out of atoms. Yes, indeed it is, like everything what you see and don't see(actually, you see the photons reflecting from it) is made out of matter. So is iron. Are we iron? No. But that's probably not wher you wanted to go. Atoms are made out of Neutrons, Protons (You missed that one) which is the core and electrons. Let's go deeper: You've got quarks, we have the family of quarks where we've got: up, down, charm, strange, top and bottom. Then we've got the Leptons with electron (oh wait, this one you already mention on a higher level, nvm) electron neutrino, muon, muon neutrino, tau and tau neutrino. I'm still asking myself where you want to go with this, but let's continue. Oh... you still want to go deeper, but.. that's how deep we can go. Besides the quarks and leptons we also have photons (without a mass), gluons, Z Boson, W Boson and the Higgs Boson which is giving our particles a mass. Ok, we reached rock bottom now. What's next?

"At what point are we different from the air we breathe and the light that we see?"

Well let's see.. air is a specific mix of elements of gas on earth on a certain level above the water (I had to google the right amount, I don't expect anyone to know this)

nitrogen (78,09%)
oxygen (20,95%)
argon (0,93%)
dioxide (0.039%)
and trace gases (0.003%)
Also water vapor with up to 2%

Ok.. and light is made of photons..... (I could go into electro magnetic waves and the spectrums of it, but what's the point?)

...

...

We are not made out of photons, and we are not made out of air. There you go. We are made out of matter (atoms and all what comes with it) if you really want to go that way, but we differentiate between unorganic matter and organic matter. Yes, organic matter contains carbon and other elements. So what? The organic compound is what's the difference from a mix of gases (air) and photons.

And no, your point stated above was nowhere near about free will and causality. By the way, causality works in quantum mechanics a bit differently. And what has carbon to do with Free Will? Carbon is an element, so is oxygen and hydrogen. Seriously, please make the connections here.

So far, you are just throwing random terms into the mixer and hope something delicious will be the result. If someone doesn't agree with you, or doesn't get where you go.. you act like " Don't talk to me, I wasn't talking to you". Guess why I called you a princess. You don't like being called a princess? Well, no one is, that's why it was your right to report me. Not mad about it. If you want to report this post aswell, feel free.

But so far, your "explanations" are no big help to undestand where you went with your post.

User was moderated for this post 

-Super_Boom



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SkepticallyMinded said:
VXIII said:

That literally reads like nothing. It is a proven fact that animals don't have sense of morality, character, appreciation of beauty and art, sense of humor and so on despite having a complex brains. Just observe the wild life how it that not provable? you didn't answer any of my question about the complexity. Then you refer to some " published science" without actually discussing the ideas....  Huh.

I think it is safe to say this is the best time to end this empty cycle. I enjoyed the topic, especially Rol's posts

Rofl!

None of those things necessarily have anything to do with consciousness. Consciousness is merely self-awareness. It's quite clear that not only do you have absolutely no understanding of what consciousness is, but you seem to enjoy living oblivious to basic scientific facts.

We're clearly done here. Wow, just wow.

Such a simplified, narrow definition. Talking about basic scientific facts... I hope that helps and clear things up:

Consciousness is the state or quality of awareness, or, of being aware of an external object or something within oneself.[1][2] It has been defined as: sentience, awareness, subjectivity, the ability to experience or to feel, wakefulness, having a sense of selfhood, and the executive control system of the mind

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness#cite_ref-Farthing1992Psychology_3-0