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Forums - Politics Discussion - EU referendum -UK users

 

Leave or remain

Leave 412 53.72%
 
Remain 355 46.28%
 
Total:767

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTMxfAkxfQ0&list=PLxmmqnJBgiEDkFrtkwGby9_HGHmzT6XNH



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I'm very on the fence over it all and I have been following everything pretty closely and as part of my bachelors studied a lot more in depth about the EU than many people will have done.

The campaigns have been disingenuous on both sides overplaying the impact of pretty much anything. Luckily, I have managed to find a helpful unbias summary of all the key arguments that have been presented by Britain Stronger in Europe and Vote Leave.

At the moment on the balance of things, I am leaning towards voting to leave. But I'm not fully decided. The standard of debate is pretty appalling from both camps.
I would like to think I've got a better grasp on the potential benefits and consequences of either decision (as yes, there is also a risk to voting to remain).
I also highly suspect a vote to Brexit will not result in us leaving the EU. But it would hopefully at least send out a big wake up call that there needs to be genuine change.


RIP Dad 25/11/51 - 13/12/13. You will be missed but never forgotten.

Ka-pi96 said:
think-man said:
British expatriates may have to stop living abroad in European countries like France and Spain if Britain leaves the European Union, the Government has suggested. Europe Minister David Lidington warned over the weekend that a British exit would see "everything we take for granted about access to the single market" in question, including "the right of British citizens to go and live in Spain or France".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/18/eu-facts-what-would-leaving-the-eu-mean-for-expats/

I doubt they're even allowed to vote either, despite being the people it will affect the most.

As I understand, international law would dictate that British expats are able to remain living where they currently do, just as EU migrants living in the UK will be able to remain living in the UK. It would impact future would be expats, not existing ones.

Unless developed nations like France and Spain decided defying international law was an acceptable choice in the vote of Brexit.

Seems to me yet another lie that that the remain camp are peddling to scare people into voting their way. Though if they intend to remain in Spain or France, I don't see how Britain leaving the EU would affect these expats in the slightest, other than potentially a more thorough immigration/customs check at the airport if they visit home.

David Cameron heading up the remain camp is very harmful to it. Proven track record of lying, and now even his claims in the EU referendum debates appear to be being fact checked and confirmed as "lies".

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-vote-leave-accuses-david-cameron-of-telling-five-outright-lies-in-debate-but-did-he-a7070766.html



RIP Dad 25/11/51 - 13/12/13. You will be missed but never forgotten.

Ka-pi96 said:
COX said:

Yes I know but what will happen if Scotland and Northern Ireland want to stay in the EU ? It will a perfect occasion to ask for a new referendum. 

If they wanted to stay that much they'd all just vote in this referendum. If the whole of Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales voted to stay then that would be more than enough to beat the EU haters.

" If the whole of Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales voted to stay then that would be more than enough to beat the EU haters"

Have you ever seen 100% for something in a referendum ? It is not about unanimity but about majority and if the majority of Scotland and Northern Ireland want to stay in the EU they should be able to stay in the EU.  

"If they wanted to stay that much they'd all just vote in this referendum." 

At this time a Brexit seemed much more unlikely than today.  

Sorry first I taught that you were talking about the referendum where Scotland decided to stay in the UK. 



Ka-pi96 said:
MikeRox said:

As I understand, international law would dictate that British expats are able to remain living where they currently do, just as EU migrants living in the UK will be able to remain living in the UK. It would impact future would be expats, not existing ones.

Unless developed nations like France and Spain decided defying international law was an acceptable choice in the vote of Brexit.

Seems to me yet another lie that that the remain camp are peddling to scare people into voting their way. Though if they intend to remain in Spain or France, I don't see how Britain leaving the EU would affect these expats in the slightest, other than potentially a more thorough immigration/customs check at the airport if they visit home.

David Cameron heading up the remain camp is very harmful to it. Proven track record of lying, and now even his claims in the EU referendum debates appear to be being fact checked and confirmed as "lies".

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-vote-leave-accuses-david-cameron-of-telling-five-outright-lies-in-debate-but-did-he-a7070766.html

What international law?

I expect any people that are working in an EU country would go on to a work visa kind of system, but if they were to later lose their jobs? There's no laws against revoking someones working visa and deporting them when they're no longer working...

The Vienna Convention 1969 -

This is based on the Vienna Convention of 1969, which says that the termination of a treaty "does not affect any right, obligation or legal situation of the parties created through the execution of the treaty prior to its termination.” The House of Commons Library says that "withdrawing from a treaty releases the parties from any future obligations to each other, but does not affect any rights or obligations acquired under it before withdrawal."



RIP Dad 25/11/51 - 13/12/13. You will be missed but never forgotten.

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Leave. We have no control over our borders with respect to EU citizens which is insane. Plus a large proportion of our laws are made in a foreign land, and our own parliament is unable to overrule them. It is an affront to british sovereignty and democracy.



About a third of French people are openly in favour of a Brexit and think it would be good for the EU anyway. They might  not be far behind looking at their current stance on the EU. That obviously assuming that the predictions that a Leave vote from the UK wouldn't finish off the project anyway.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/euroscepticism-on-the-rise-across-europe-as-analysis-finds-increasing-opposition-to-the-eu-in-france-a7069766.html



RIP Dad 25/11/51 - 13/12/13. You will be missed but never forgotten.

Ka-pi96 said:
MikeRox said:

Considering the amount of Poles that have moved to the UK thanks to the EU I have a hard time believing that

Unless... what if Polish people are pissed that their friends/family keep running off to the UK and that's why don't want them in the EU anymore? :o

It's saying 72% of Polish people have a favourable view of the European Union only 22% have a negative.

France on the otherhand 61% of the population have a negative view of the EU (i.e. higher than the UK) with Greece for obvious reasons having the most negative view.

So you can see why some suggest a Brexit vote in the UK, could trigger similar votes around the EU, pretty much all the major EU economies are really starting to get a lot of anti EU sentiment in them.

How the EU feels about Brexit is the one below 70% think it's bad, 16% think it's good for the EU.



RIP Dad 25/11/51 - 13/12/13. You will be missed but never forgotten.

COX said:
Ka-pi96 said:

Well Scotland aren't independent, so if England leave then so do they (and Wales/Northern Ireland too of course)

Yes I know but what will happen if Scotland and Northern Ireland want to stay in the EU ? It will a perfect occasion to ask for a new referendum. 

However current polls suggest Scotland would still vote to remain in the UK in the event of a Brexit.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-referendum-what-will-happen-if-uk-leaves-will-it-break-up-scottish-independence-a7071481.html

Not got anything on Northern Ireland. But using "it'll break up the Union", while not an impossibility, not anywhere near as certain as some are trying to make it.

But I find this picture fun. Especially if you factor the SNPs logic into it all.



RIP Dad 25/11/51 - 13/12/13. You will be missed but never forgotten.

Ka-pi96 said:
COX said:

" If the whole of Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales voted to stay then that would be more than enough to beat the EU haters"

Have you ever seen 100% for something in a referendum ? It is not about unanimity but about majority and if the majority of Scotland and Northern Ireland want to stay in the EU they should be able to stay in the EU.  

"If they wanted to stay that much they'd all just vote in this referendum." 

At this time a Brexit seemed much more unlikely than today.  

Sorry first I taught that you were talking about the referendum where Scotland decided to stay in the UK. 

Well it wouldn't even need to be 100%, as long as it was a large majority (as you're suggesting it would be) in those countries that would rather remain in the EU then that alone would make a big difference in the referendum.

Besides, what makes Scotland/Northern Ireland so special? If you're saying that they should be able to stay in the EU if the majority want to, then what about other areas? What if the majority of London, or the North East, or Cornwall or anywhere else want to stay but they still lose the referendum?

What makes Scotland and Northern Ireland special is that they are not areas of England but part of UK. If Great Britain wants to leave EU I don't see why Scotland et NI souldn't have the same right to leave UK if they are not statisfied  by the current state of this "Union".