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Greece Defaults. What now?

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mai said:
generic-user-1 said:

and not destroying your nature because you can pay others to destroy theres is very pragmatic..

Pragamatism is when you're weighing up the risks, while you're in denial of the fact that current crisis will inevitably bring a great deal of energy-deficit regions to what UN indentifies as energy poverty if not hunger due to destruction of transportaion routes and decline in energy production, covering this by one fairy tale or another. Not the first time I talk about it with you and every time the explanation is different: first it was renewables, then it's p2g, now it's a "smart plan" and we just "do not want to drill holes in the ground because it's bad for the nature", then "we have coal" (where did the topic of nature suddenly go?). This lack of consistency is rather childish and makes me think if you're actually believe what you say.


the topic changes a bit everytime... 

1. Present situation:europe is energie deficit at the moment because we dont like to drill holes(or more let giant machines eat great chunks of good soil to get coal out of the ground). buying energie from outside is way cheaper and we dont destroy our nature(smart plan).

2.Resources: thats a choice we made, its not like we dont have enough coal and other fossile fuel in the ground(well regular oil isnt enough there, but unconventionel oil is enough for a long time). there is even enough uran in the ground, but uran mining is realy realy ugly.

3.Future: we are on the way to fix the deficit with green energie and less energie consume. germany has 25% of powerproduction from EEs atm, and its rising fast.  p2g is in the last stages of development, its needed because northern europe will soon have to much energie most of the time because of windenergie.



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Dulfite said:
sc94597 said:


I don't distinguish between warfare and welfare Keynesians too much. They are both doing the same thing. Bush is not absolved just because Obama did what he had done even more.


Notice I said the liberals, not just Obama. I'm more making fun of the notion (that is widely accepted by the majority of Earth's population, ignorantly) that the President is the person to blame for current economic tumbles considering a Presiden'ts actions usually don't impact an economy until 6-12 years after the decision they make. People blamed the 08 recession on Bush when, in fact, it had a lot more to do with what was going on in the late 90's than the mid 2000's in my opinion. Not to mention Congress is a lot more to blame than Presidents, but Presidents (particiularly Republican ones) usually get the majority of the blame (due to very liberal media for the most part).

Presidents are responsible for interacting with the federal reserve and appointing federal reserve chairmen. If any organization could be given credit for the economic well-being of the U.S, it is the fed and its role in interest rates and inflation rates. Congress is responsible as well, for having unrealistic budgetary expectations, and for creating the fed in the first place, but usually the executive branch and the federal reserve are the ones working together and making strategies with regards to the economy and trying to persuade congress on unrealistic budgets, when they finally start to sober themselves and consider cuts. 2008 was caused by the excecutive branch and the fed persuading banks, in the 90's, to effectively give out mortgages to everyone they could at historically low interest rates. Eventually this destroyed those banks and the housing market. And then their friends in government bailed them out. Debt and huge military budgets were influenced by Bush's warfare urges, and capitalized upon by "liberal" welfarism. I agree though. No single branch of government or industry is to blame. It is the collusion of all of them in the interest of cronyism, which is to blame. This is one of the very reasons why competition is superior to collusion and cronyism. When everyone is looking into their own self-interest they don't make irrational decisions based on promises or favors from their friends, and special previleges of protections, i.e "too big to fail." 



Well,since I'm Greek I feel like i should give my opinion on the matter.Greece's debt crisis was mishandled by both the Greek government and the EU/IMF.Imposing harsh austerity,with a country losing 25%(!!!) of it's GDP and having unemployment grow to 27% doesn't get your money back,it just creates a slave country with no bright future ahead.Greece,at the moment,isn't running on deficit,it actually has a surplus,a first in 20 years.So,i think that the ESM should buy Greece's debt from ECB and IMF,prolong it from 30years to 60years,and freeze it's repayment for 5 years,so as to let Greece get back it's lost GDP and have surpluses invested in the economy.Meanwhile,in those 5 years Greece won't be given more loans,as it will live on its own money.That could actually,put an end to an endless cycle of loans and create the right conditions for Greece to repay the debt in time.



eleonora said:
Well,since I'm Greek I feel like i should give my opinion on the matter.Greece's debt crisis was mishandled by both the Greek government and the EU/IMF.Imposing harsh austerity,with a country losing 25%(!!!) of it's GDP and having unemployment grow to 27% doesn't get your money back,it just creates a slave country with no bright future ahead.Greece,at the moment,isn't running on deficit,it actually has a surplus,a first in 20 years.So,i think that the ESM should buy Greece's debt from ECB and IMF,prolong it from 30years to 60years,and freeze it's repayment for 5 years,so as to let Greece get back it's lost GDP and have surpluses invested in the economy.Meanwhile,in those 5 years Greece won't be given more loans,as it will live on its own money.That could actually,put an end to an endless cycle of loans and create the right conditions for Greece to repay the debt in time.


Greece has to cut back more. the miltary spending is way to high.  and there has to be a constitutional reform to stop the tax fraud in the sipping industrie.

 

oh and legalise dope, that will bring in tourists and taxes and will lower the spending for police and prisons.



generic-user-1 said:
eleonora said:
Well,since I'm Greek I feel like i should give my opinion on the matter.Greece's debt crisis was mishandled by both the Greek government and the EU/IMF.Imposing harsh austerity,with a country losing 25%(!!!) of it's GDP and having unemployment grow to 27% doesn't get your money back,it just creates a slave country with no bright future ahead.Greece,at the moment,isn't running on deficit,it actually has a surplus,a first in 20 years.So,i think that the ESM should buy Greece's debt from ECB and IMF,prolong it from 30years to 60years,and freeze it's repayment for 5 years,so as to let Greece get back it's lost GDP and have surpluses invested in the economy.Meanwhile,in those 5 years Greece won't be given more loans,as it will live on its own money.That could actually,put an end to an endless cycle of loans and create the right conditions for Greece to repay the debt in time.


Greece has to cut back more. the miltary spending is way to high.  and there has to be a constitutional reform to stop the tax fraud in the sipping industrie.

 

oh and legalise dope, that will bring in tourists and taxes and will lower the spending for police and prisons.


We could also legalize walking naked so as to attract more tourists.I mean get a grip :P .As for the military spending,it's that high because albanians dream of great albania,fyrom dreams of great macedonia,turkey dreams of taking over some islands,so u get the picture.As for constitutional reforms and tax fraud i couldn't agree more.There're many things that can be done in that field.Also,a modern pension system.But,all those things can't be done with a "wild" society.We should be given more room to breathe,so we can walk faster.It's not out of this world,asking to get unemployment down and start having growth,in order to repay the debt.



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eleonora said:
generic-user-1 said:


Greece has to cut back more. the miltary spending is way to high.  and there has to be a constitutional reform to stop the tax fraud in the sipping industrie.

 

oh and legalise dope, that will bring in tourists and taxes and will lower the spending for police and prisons.


We could also legalize walking naked so as to attract more tourists.I mean get a grip :P .As for the military spending,it's that high because albanians dream of great albania,fyrom dreams of great macedonia,turkey dreams of taking over some islands,so u get the picture.As for constitutional reforms and tax fraud i couldn't agree more.There're many things that can be done in that field.Also,a modern pension system.But,all those things can't be done with a "wild" society.We should be given more room to breathe,so we can walk faster.It's not out of this world,asking to get unemployment down and start having growth,in order to repay the debt.

the fear of turkey is okay, but pls macedonia and albania?  and all this could be changed easyly, integration of the some parts of greeces army in the EU  army and joint EU military bases in greece. turkey will not start a fight if they have to kill italien and french soldiers because they are part of the same batalion than the greeks. thats wouldnt be something totaly new, germany and the land under the sea have a mixed corp  and germany and france a mixed brigade...

 

the EU should help alot more, building up the taxation infrastructure, bombarding swiss if they dont corporate with greece, making usefull demands(like taxation for the shipping industrie), etc.  i dont think greece would say no to usefull demands.



generic-user-1 said:
eleonora said:
generic-user-1 said:


Greece has to cut back more. the miltary spending is way to high.  and there has to be a constitutional reform to stop the tax fraud in the sipping industrie.

 

oh and legalise dope, that will bring in tourists and taxes and will lower the spending for police and prisons.


We could also legalize walking naked so as to attract more tourists.I mean get a grip :P .As for the military spending,it's that high because albanians dream of great albania,fyrom dreams of great macedonia,turkey dreams of taking over some islands,so u get the picture.As for constitutional reforms and tax fraud i couldn't agree more.There're many things that can be done in that field.Also,a modern pension system.But,all those things can't be done with a "wild" society.We should be given more room to breathe,so we can walk faster.It's not out of this world,asking to get unemployment down and start having growth,in order to repay the debt.

the fear of turkey is okay, but pls macedonia and albania?  and all this could be changed easyly, integration of the some parts of greeces army in the EU  army and joint EU military bases in greece. turkey will not start a fight if they have to kill italien and french soldiers because they are part of the same batalion than the greeks. thats wouldnt be something totaly new, germany and the land under the sea have a mixed corp  and germany and france a mixed brigade...

 

the EU should help alot more, building up the taxation infrastructure, bombarding swiss if they dont corporate with greece, making usefull demands(like taxation for the shipping industrie), etc.  i dont think greece would say no to usefull demands.


EU doesn't have a military yet.It's something that is being discussed at the moment.That would definitely secure Greece from Turkey for good.Greece is open to reforms,as long as,they don't create more recession and unemployment.



generic-user-1 said:

the EU should help alot more, building up the taxation infrastructure, bombarding swiss if they dont corporate with greece, making usefull demands(like taxation for the shipping industrie), etc.  i dont think greece would say no to usefull demands.


Germany offered to send 160 tax inspectors to Greece, to help the Greek government fix their tax collection systems, but the Greek government rejected their help. (Source)

And then there's the case of Greece's former Secretary for Public Revenue, who quit after receiving death threats while trying to improve the state's tax collection systems. (Source)

There's an attitude in Greece that avoiding taxes is somehow honourable or brave, when really it's the cause behind most of the country's problems. Greece has been running budget deficits for 40+ years. The reason that the troika have looked for spending cuts, as opposed to tax increases, is because their is a belief among the troika members (which is an entirely reasonable belief) that any measures agreed on for any deals that involve increases in taxes won't actually happen. Successive Greek governments have said they will improve tax collection methods, reduce tax avoidance, boost tax receipts etc. And they haven't. The previous Greek government got a small primary surplus last year and saw a small (but signficant, considering what went before) reduction in unemployment figures. And how did the Greek people respond? They voted in the loonies and stopped paying their taxes.

Greek tax receipts were €900m (a staggering 24%) under target in May this year. (Source) Basically, if tax receipts this year had reached the levels expected, the Greek government would have been able to pay the €1.6 billion to the IMF in June, as well as the upcoming €3.5 billion to the ECB (July 20th), without having to secure extra funding first.

At this point, any more support Europe offers should be conditional on reforms occurring first. If more money is advanced to Greece with promises of "we'll fix this" and "we'll fix that", nothing will change. The Greek government needs to get it house in order, then be rewarded for that (e.g. achieve primary surplus of 1% this year, get x amount of debt written off. Achieve primary surplus of 2% in 2016, get y amount of debt written off).



0815user said:
palou said:
0815user said:
mai said:
0815user said:
countries debts are overrated in my opinion because unlike individuals no one can really force a country to pay them back. I mean what do you want to do? Invade them? And even if a county does default, basic needs towards the people will always be provided no matter how much debt they have.

 

The EU could very well kill off Greece economically, if they would want to. It would be stupid, of course, but the option to cut all new funding and trade relationships is a threat that can be made towards a country refusing to repay a debt.

But that would mean that greece (for not being able to pay creditors) and russia (for military aggression towards another country) would basically suffer the same sanctions. Unjustifiable and therefore not going to happen.

The US got no sanctions at all after overthrowing Irans democratic government militarily. The world is not fair.

Russia would normally get invaded by NATO in their case, if they didn't have the world's largest nuclear arsenal.

And economical sanctions are perfectly legal. Cuba got completely cut off. Greece is dependant on trade with the EU.

Also, stoppong to trade with Greee is much easier than Russia, as the link doesn't actually matter much to the EU. (losses towards russia upon the sanctions are greater than a complete stop of trade would be with greece, for the EU.)



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I win if Arms sells over 700 000 units worldwide by the end of 2017.

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I win if Emmanuel Macron wins the french presidential election May 7th 2017.

sc94597 said:

The rest of Europe, parts of Asia, and the U.S follow within the next 30 years or so. Greece is just an extreme example of where the rest of the world is heading.


The US won't because it CAN rise up, pull together, and poduce for themselves. If they were in a mess, they'd get out of said mess.