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BREXIT could cost the UK €300 billion

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Ka-pi96 said:
Qwark said:
Ka-pi96 said:

Yes please. IMO the sooner we become one giant European super nation the better


Europe is to diverse for thst to be honest, secondly swiss and norway wouldn't join. Neither would any country which doesn't have the Euro. Would you be glad to hand over the profit of the hard earned North Western economies to support the broke corrupted states even further. I don't want to see that happen since that would tore our continent appart even further. The EU must become more of what the EEC was a party for environmental care, economical colobration and control, controling migration and millitary defense nor shouldn't concern itself with every law made in each state it should lose it's big brother's attitude. The EU should set out a few clear lines to which countries need to obey to stay in the Union (rules about corruption, debt etc.).

It's also what UK wants these days 75% of your lws are delgated from EU policy's.

Except that shouldn't really be a problem. If it were to unite in to one country those wouldn't be broke corrupt states any more. Well, ok they would still be corrupt but much less corrupt than they are now.

Also if some countries don't want to join then really that's just their loss, and as for the Euro one of its main issues was it being a single currency being subjected to many different economies and policies this would prevent that as well if it was all one economy sharing the same economic policies.

 

But how much are you prepared to pay for that as a North Western Europe country? Last time I checked Swiss and Norway did better than any EU country on a ridicilous amount of area's economics, healthcare, education and quite arguable immigration. European countries all have their own culture, much more than American states (even though your states do differ). Our nations are pride of the fact thqt they are Dutch, France, German, they see themselves as citizens of a country not as just an European. In a way the strength of the EU comes in it's diversity. take that away and transform it in another US/ Which would make the continent weaker, we complete each other these days and for that each nation needs some of it's own laws.

In an ideal world it could work, but it would make a huge mess of Europe due to all the uncertainties it will bring with it if Europe decides to become a supercontinent. Which industrie will profit from that, which industrie will be torn appart by that, the stock courses would go down damning the superstate. After a while they will recover and become strong but at a huge cultural, economical and industrial cost. I prefer Europe as a whole lot of different countries working together on some aspects and do there own thing (specialize)on other aspects 



Please excuse my (probally) poor grammar

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Qwark said:
Ka-pi96 said:

Except that shouldn't really be a problem. If it were to unite in to one country those wouldn't be broke corrupt states any more. Well, ok they would still be corrupt but much less corrupt than they are now.

Also if some countries don't want to join then really that's just their loss, and as for the Euro one of its main issues was it being a single currency being subjected to many different economies and policies this would prevent that as well if it was all one economy sharing the same economic policies.

 

But how much are you prepared to pay for that as a North Western Europe country? Last time I checked Swiss and Norway did better than any EU country on a ridicilous amount of area's economics, healthcare, education and quite arguable immigration. European countries all have their own culture, much more than American states (even though your states do differ). Our nations are pride of the fact thqt they are Dutch, France, German, they see themselves as citizens of a country not as just an European. In a way the strength of the EU comes in it's diversity. take that away and transform it in another US/ Which would make the continent weaker, we complete each other these days and for that each nation needs some of it's own laws.

In an ideal world it could work, but it would make a huge mess of Europe due to all the uncertainties it will bring with it if Europe decides to become a supercontinent. Which industrie will profit from that, which industrie will be torn appart by that, the stock courses would go down damning the superstate. After a while they will recover and become strong but at a huge cultural, economical and industrial cost. I prefer Europe as a whole lot of different countries working together on some aspects and do there own thing (specialize)on other aspects 

Why can't they still retain some of their own identity though? I'm thinking more of a federal structure with a similar basis to the UK. So the individual areas are still unique countries in many ways and manage a lot of their own affairs, they just aren't sovereign states anymore.



Bet Shiken that COD would outsell Battlefield in 2018. http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8749702

Ka-pi96 said:
Qwark said:
Ka-pi96 said:

Except that shouldn't really be a problem. If it were to unite in to one country those wouldn't be broke corrupt states any more. Well, ok they would still be corrupt but much less corrupt than they are now.

Also if some countries don't want to join then really that's just their loss, and as for the Euro one of its main issues was it being a single currency being subjected to many different economies and policies this would prevent that as well if it was all one economy sharing the same economic policies.

 

But how much are you prepared to pay for that as a North Western Europe country? Last time I checked Swiss and Norway did better than any EU country on a ridicilous amount of area's economics, healthcare, education and quite arguable immigration. European countries all have their own culture, much more than American states (even though your states do differ). Our nations are pride of the fact thqt they are Dutch, France, German, they see themselves as citizens of a country not as just an European. In a way the strength of the EU comes in it's diversity. take that away and transform it in another US/ Which would make the continent weaker, we complete each other these days and for that each nation needs some of it's own laws.

In an ideal world it could work, but it would make a huge mess of Europe due to all the uncertainties it will bring with it if Europe decides to become a supercontinent. Which industrie will profit from that, which industrie will be torn appart by that, the stock courses would go down damning the superstate. After a while they will recover and become strong but at a huge cultural, economical and industrial cost. I prefer Europe as a whole lot of different countries working together on some aspects and do there own thing (specialize)on other aspects 

Why can't they still retain some of their own identity though? I'm thinking more of a federal structure with a similar basis to the UK. So the individual areas are still unique countries in many ways and manage a lot of their own affairs, they just aren't sovereign states anymore.

Many laws are specifically designed for certain countries to make sure it's industrie and economics are strong and sustainable. Let's say we take Germany they make cars lots of them and there are quirte a few laws and delegates laws from that point making sure they can do that the way they see fit. France and Italy also makes cars but does do that differently and they have anotherset of laws for that. Combining all of those laws to one and hand them out is unwanted since everything needs to change. I wouldn't want a superior state to look in everything my country does and make practically all rules. For that instance I like Euro's guidelines makes sure this happens in x years  and you're free to do it your own way. Each country has it ways of doing this and ever had those ways the SuperEU should only give guidelines with deadlines which you have to make. If you do not there will be concequences, this way you retain the uniqueness of eah nation. Yet the EU is perfectly capable for that, but they should lose the directly enforcing European law trough EU members throat even if that certain party doesn't want that law. Keep our nations sovereign it's part of our identity and making them unsovereign would be one hell of a job to do ayways.  



Please excuse my (probally) poor grammar

Ka-pi96 said:
Scoobes said:
Ka-pi96 said:

Yes please. IMO the sooner we become one giant European super nation the better

I honestly never thought I'd see anyone from the UK (or any EU country actually) support that. National identity tends to be quite strong in European countries thanks to the history we all have. The UK especially as we're also physically seperated from the rest of Europe.

Well as they say there's a first time for everything

But yeah, I see myself as European first and British second. Europe as a whole has a strong and proud history so I want what is best for all of us. We would be much stronger as one united Europe (able to compete even with the US and China) than we are as individual countries.

That's actually really refreshing to read.



I personally don't like the EU. I like free trade, and free movement of people. I don't think that Europe represents either of those things. In fact, the EU is one of the most protectionist blocs in the world.

Some earlier posts in this thread said that the EU's financial markets would be much more stable without London. This is laughable, considering the situation with the Greek banks, and the absolutely dire state that Deutsche Bank are in.

British banks, for the most part, are withdrawing from, or reducing their presence in, European markets.



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SamuelRSmith said:
I personally don't like the EU. I like free trade, and free movement of people. I don't think that Europe represents either of those things. In fact, the EU is one of the most protectionist blocs in the world.

Some earlier posts in this thread said that the EU's financial markets would be much more stable without London. This is laughable, considering the situation with the Greek banks, and the absolutely dire state that Deutsche Bank are in.

British banks, for the most part, are withdrawing from, or reducing their presence in, European markets.

1. i traveld a lot the last 2 years, without talking to any border guard or paying any fee. just get up, shave, take the bike to the train station, buy a ticket, take the train to paris, or amsterdam, or warsaw.

free trade is a different thing, but less EU will not help. we need more EU for that, if every country has the same taxes, trade will be easyer.

 

and the europea banks could be much better regulated without london. thats a big plus.   and greek isnt such a big problem, the need to renew 400b in debt.

thats not so bad, they dont make much new debt(less than the uk)  and the EU without the UK would stand stronger, with lower ficaldeficit and lower tradedeficit.(and the Eurozone is way better of than the US, there is no new junkrealestate buble in the EU, ther is no tightoil buble in the EU and european students have no debt problem...)



In my opinion the EU has a lot of problems but moest of these problems come from not enough EU. More Eu is needed because most problems come from the countries having a lot of different rules imo



Qwark said:
Ka-pi96 said:
setsunatenshi said:
it's up to you brits to decide whether you wanna stay or leave.

i do think the way things are can't stay for long... so either we as europeans put nationalities aside and collectively opt to form a real federation or we might as well go back to the way things were way back when.

continuing to a federation solution would obviously mean the bigger economies would have to increase the solidarity to the weaker economies, much in the same way as the main bulk of the budget in a given country is generated in it's richer cities and then a part distributed to the least economically independent ones.

that's a pill that is hard to swallow for the electorate of the net contributors, but it's entirely up to them to balance out what they see as the more important goal.

isolation will have costs that probably outweigh the benefits that seem easier to comprehend for the more simpleton voter.

anyway, let's see what come of it. gl uk

Yes please. IMO the sooner we become one giant European super nation the better


Europe is to diverse for thst to be honest, secondly swiss and norway wouldn't join. Neither would any country which doesn't have the Euro. Would you be glad to hand over the profit of the hard earned North Western economies to support the broke corrupted states even further. I don't want to see that happen since that would tore our continent appart even further. The EU must become more of what the EEC was a party for environmental care, economical colobration and control, controling migration and millitary defense nor shouldn't concern itself with every law made in each state it should lose it's big brother's attitude. The EU should set out a few clear lines to which countries need to obey to stay in the Union (rules about corruption, debt etc.).

It's also what UK wants these days 75% of your lws are delgated from EU policy's.


Something like United Nations of Europe would take a long time. But i think it's not impossible. Not in the long term. That would have to mean that nations are willing to give up some things to a real european government though. Something i do not see right now.


Now, what can the EU right now give? Actually stability. That is something you can see in the other problem countries like Ireland, Spain, Italy...

They've had a really tough time and still have, but as for example Spains economy would likely have fallen apart if not in the EU.


Political weight. Let's face it. A single european state, even Germany, France or UK does not at all have the big political weight. EU could have that and basically already has it if decisions are made together instead against each other.

 

By the way, most german banks are stable. Deutsche Bank just wants to get rid of its not so profitable sectors like small private customers and it has to pay a penalty, though a huge one.

Your great british banking and finance sector shows another problem on the other hand. It's to big. one nice finance crash or the wrong bank collapsing and UK's economy, at least as long as it is alone, basically would fall apart.



There not leaving Europe there leaving the European Union and regaining their own sovereignty to make their own laws regarding commerce.

People love to scaremonger about the UK leaving the European Union but the free trade deals it has with the European Union benefit are more beneficial to the other countries as the UK has a trade deficit with the rest of the EU. The EU also forces member nations to adopt policies benefiting certain members over others and makes it harder for the UK to get free trade deals with countries outside the EU or regulate it's own borders.

Fuck the European Union, the sooner it falls apart the better in my opinion.



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Where you either win

or you DIE

captain carot said:
Qwark said:


Europe is to diverse for thst to be honest, secondly swiss and norway wouldn't join. Neither would any country which doesn't have the Euro. Would you be glad to hand over the profit of the hard earned North Western economies to support the broke corrupted states even further. I don't want to see that happen since that would tore our continent appart even further. The EU must become more of what the EEC was a party for environmental care, economical colobration and control, controling migration and millitary defense nor shouldn't concern itself with every law made in each state it should lose it's big brother's attitude. The EU should set out a few clear lines to which countries need to obey to stay in the Union (rules about corruption, debt etc.).

It's also what UK wants these days 75% of your lws are delgated from EU policy's.


Something like United Nations of Europe would take a long time. But i think it's not impossible. Not in the long term. That would have to mean that nations are willing to give up some things to a real european government though. Something i do not see right now.


Now, what can the EU right now give? Actually stability. That is something you can see in the other problem countries like Ireland, Spain, Italy...

They've had a really tough time and still have, but as for example Spains economy would likely have fallen apart if not in the EU.


Political weight. Let's face it. A single european state, even Germany, France or UK does not at all have the big political weight. EU could have that and basically already has it if decisions are made together instead against each other.

 

By the way, most german banks are stable. Deutsche Bank just wants to get rid of its not so profitable sectors like small private customers and it has to pay a penalty, though a huge one.

Your great british banking and finance sector shows another problem on the other hand. It's to big. one nice finance crash or the wrong bank collapsing and UK's economy, at least as long as it is alone, basically would fall apart.


I am Dutch not British, Spain, Portugal, Ireland and Italy did not fall apart due to the EU, which is nice but never the less the EU shouldn´t be to much of a new US. Why would Germany, France, Uk, Benelux even want such a thing they are doing quite well and there economies are running good as they always have and always will. That economic status is hard earned and due to the crisis these countries endured quite a lot. On second hand a eurosuperstate could only be a concensus made decission since a 50%+ vote would cause an outrage and possibly countries leaving EU directly. Technically even Greece could prevent such a thing happening.

European countries are not American states we work together (because we need and like to), but in the very essence we are indvidual countries which also compete against eachother. Take the Harbour of Rotterdam and the Harbour of Antwerpen, those harbours compete against eachother but also work together. They both want to be the best and the Governments of the respected countries want to have the most safe and the biggest harbour possible. Make a superstate and SuperEU would decide the fate of these harbours. A superstate would be to masssive and to much of bureaucraty, I for one am glad that the British and Dutch EU ministers stopped the European constitution replacing national constitution. Even though some things like gay marriage might be allowed in whole Europe affective at the date clearance was allowed, the country doesn't choose to do that and could still make it very hard for those people to actually do it. 

Decissions in Europe are made either by consensus or a 50%+ voting panel, so technicaly it's pretty much democratic. My only problem witth the EU is, that is has to much direct delegated laws and to few guidelines with a deadline, (not making it has concequences unless you are France). It gives a sharing policy throughout Europe yet it keeps it's diversity and countries can do there thing in it's own way. This way would be supported by most citizens of a country since they can actually protest against things, try protesting against an EU regulation most people wouldn't even know where to begin. The EU should focus more on it's original goals which are support peace, environment, knowledge and economic growth throughout and sometimes even outside Europe. And less about which countrie should do what on migration, healthcare, education, crime fighting, agriculture and god knows what. Let countries find that out with eachother without some superstate interference. So less EU interference on some areas and more on other areas no need to transform into the United States of Europe.



Please excuse my (probally) poor grammar