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Forums - Politics Discussion - Freedom of business

Ka-pi96 said:

I'm thinking more widespread than just one instance. Say everyone rejects a certain group of people, then that group can't get a job anywhere for pretty much no reason. That very much hurts people.

Yes, someone who is incompetent is less worth than someone of a different gender. If they aren't capable of doing the job they should look elsewhere for a different job that better matches their ability. I see no problem in that.

The person of the other gender is not capable of doing the job because that person can't work together with the people that already work there. Therefor that person should look elsewhere for a job.

And as for widespread discrimination, I would only treat that as a problem if the majority does it and it would become a problem, which is not the case in our current western society.

No person has the right to their dream job.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

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vivster said:
teigaga said:

Theres a distinction between that image you posted and actual discrimination regarding something someone is unable to change such as their race/sexuality. How many times have you been declined service because of your person? Not attire, but who you literally are. Its not even comparable.

That isn't really correct though. If not wearing an attire that is appropriate for that business is part of my personality then I'm getting rejected because of that. I can't change mypersonality. So forcing a shirt on me and act like a normal person is the exact very same as forcing a gay person to act straight.

Both don't hurt the person physically and both are easily possible but both will make that person feel really uncomfortable and wrong.

Dude are you serious?

Are you really comparing a uniform to sexuality? Even the line "act straight" is mis informed because it has nothing to do with acting, its who you are. Someone can "act" as straight as they want, but that has nothing to do with their sexuality which is determined by who you are attracted to, not how you act. Imagine someone refusing you a job because your girlfriend is blonde.

Code of conduct at work is one thing; "speak like this", "dress like this"... Essentially being asked to adjust your means of expression to fit a business/event. Someone can't just go home and change their race/gender/sexuality lol,  they are not means of expression.



I also hate to be the type that's easily offended, but I take significant issue with your claims of how a woman would disrupt a dynamic in a group of males.

That's the EXACT situation I faced in my current job as a software developer. One of my fellow developers admitted that they were apprehensive when they heard a woman was joining the team, because they were afraid they would have to behave differently. There hadn't been a single female software developer in the company until I arrived, and it's very much a 'boy's club'. Had they decided that my sex would disturb their 'dynamic' and were legally allowed to reject me because of it, I wouldn't have the job I've had for the last 2 years.



teigaga said:

Dude are you serious?

Are you really comparing a uniform to sexuality? Even the line "act straight" is mis informed because it has nothing to do with acting, its who you are. Someone can "act" as straight as they want, but that has nothing to do with their sexuality which is determined by who you are attracted to, not how you act. Imagine someone refusing you a job because your girlfriend is blonde.

Code of conduct at work is one thing; "speak like this", "dress like this"... Essentially being asked to adjust your means of expression to fit a business/event. Someone can't just go home and change their race/gender/sexuality lol,  they are not means of expression.

Dude, what if I told you that a gay person could act in a way as to make people think they're straight? For example a man going with his boyfriend into restaurant while not holding hands, not kissing and not talking about how great the gay sex was they had last night. You don't have to change your personality to pretend you're someone else. I could easily pretend to be gay and people would believe me.

Yes, me acting gay is the very exact same thing as me acting as if I don't hate wearing that suit. It's an act. It's very easy but still very uncomfortable. I'm not asking people to change inside but only to the outside. An act is an act is an act is an act.

And yes being uncomfortable in what you are doing is universal no matter what uncomfortable thing you are doing.

 

And before the mod police comes for me using the g word so much I like to assure everyone that I don't give a shit about any gender or sexuality. I'm using it as an example. I could very well be talking about people who like blue hats and people who like red hats.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

People like you are always loud, but I'm glad you're no longer a majority and your kind will sink into oblivion as the world moves forward.

In no time you will sound just as absurd and inappropriate as this 100 year old sign.



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I see this is a very controversial topic.
It seems gender and sexuality really are hot button issues that receive more weight than any other attribute of the human existence.

The more I argue I'm seeing myself becoming more and more hypocritical. It's a very complex issue and it looks like this is not possible to fight with words as everyone has a different interpretation and world view of things. I'm accusing you of drawing arbitrary lines while I have my own lines thanks to my upbringing and own convictions.

Looks like the only things discussions like these lead to is people stating their insular view with no progress or compromises being made.

I'm going to keep that in mind when I'm thinking of opening another of these threads.

It seems my view of things is just too mechanical and asocial and rational when this would never work in a human society.

I still stand by my arbitrary lines though, because that's what people do.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

As a small business owner I have the freedom to regulate customers and employees based along behavioral lines, not discriminate based on what they are.

For example, I can fire an employee for poor work performance or disruptive behavior, not because they are a woman or Asian.

Why is this? It comes down to that in the United States many groups have been discriminated and persecuted based simply on what they are. Freedom of business would be fine in a society where it is not really needed, but we know how racism, ageism, sexism, etc. do exist.

For example, there have been experiments where identical resumes are sent out and simply the name at the header affects the number of job offers. You want a gender neutral or male name, preferably of anglo origin (Charles, Henry, etc.). May notice many east asians name their children European names because they know how the system works.

To me, when I hear this argument come up it is often the people who have never been discriminated against or lack the fear of it that champion freedom. This kind of society favors those in power and majorities and makes it harder for those outside these groups to achieve the same level of success.

So, yes, it is unfortunately necessary that businesses be monitored by the state to avoid creating a caste like society where the powerful majority bullies the weaker minorities. We are aware that this system is still within living memory? It is not that crazy to think parts of the country would fall back into those bad habits.



vivster said:

Dude, what if I told you that a gay person could act in a way as to make people think they're straight? For example a man going with his boyfriend into restaurant while not holding hands, not kissing and not talking about how great the gay sex was they had last night. You don't have to change your personality to pretend you're someone else. I could easily pretend to be gay and people would believe me.

Yes, me acting gay is the very exact same thing as me acting as if I don't hate wearing that suit. It's an act. It's very easy but still very uncomfortable. I'm not asking people to change inside but only to the outside. An act is an act is an act is an act.

And yes being uncomfortable in what you are doing is universal no matter what uncomfortable thing you are doing.

 

And before the mod police comes for me using the g word so much I like to assure everyone that I don't give a shit about any gender or sexuality. I'm using it as an example. I could very well be talking about people who like blue hats and people who like red hats.

Many gay people do exactly that and not just to fit in or conform but because of fear of discrimination. Your wearing of a suit, or dislike of, does not affect your other employees, you could even voice this concern to other employees and they may join the conversation, agree or laugh with you, I doubt anyone would say "I don't want to work for this company because you don't like wearing suits". Yet a person hiding their sexuality because of what other employee's opinions is a little messed up.

'g word'? You mean gay? Don't fear the word, it's part of the topic of conversation.



Hmm, pie.

Without thinking too much about it, something that is a choice(religion) should always be consiered less important than something that is not(homosexuality or race)



I think the main problem with the gender vs. skill argument is

I can improve my skill and get better, then reapply is the position is still available

But I cannot change my gender or sexuality.