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Forums - Politics Discussion - Is Socialism Anti-American?

 

Is it?

Yes 85 28.72%
 
NO 183 61.82%
 
Opinion below 8 2.70%
 
other 13 4.39%
 
Total:289
ArnoldRimmer said:
I doubt most people could even properly explain what "socialism" actually is. Or "communism" etc.

In practice, the term is being used so inconsistently, arbitrarily and wrong that most people think that it's about the same as "communism". And even if they knew absolutely nothing about communism, they'd know that "capitalism" is good, "communism" is evil, so the same must apply for "socialism".

But these words have little real world relevance. Even America has never been a true capitalism, just like there was never a country that actually had true communism.

I know very well that the Soviet Union, Communist China, etc had socialist economies and not the communist utopian ideal. I've read " the Communist manifesto", many books on "Ricardian Socialism" and the various types of "utopian socialism" which preceded Marx. They are all cut from the same cloth: promoting collectives over invidiual voluntary interaction. No ideology is evil, it's the capacity of what an ideology allows which can be unethical or amoral. Socialism, in all its forms, gives too much to collectives over individuals, in my opinion, and that is why I oppose all of its forms. 

Laissez-faire capitalism can only exist in an anarchy, I agree. But that doesn't mean trying to reach that ideal as much as possible is not valuable. Just as a representative government is based on the utopian idea that all individuals can be represented by stereotyping their beliefs into geographic groupings. 



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bonzobanana said:
sc94597 said:
bonzobanana said:
Aura7541 said:
Socialism has already existed in America long before Obama took office. Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, and the US military are socialist programs. Republicans have been using "socialism" as a soundbite without even considering what its true definition really is. So yeah, socialism is not anti-American at all.


US military is a socialist  program?

As a libertarian, I wholeheartingly say, yes it is. Is there a free market in national defense? No. Is national defense paid for with taxation by a government? Yes. Is it socialist, then? Yes. In fact, national defense is the most (and first) socialist market  found in the United States. The political landscape before the mid 1800's was opposed to a national, standing, socialist,  military, and was for voluntary, free-choice, militias. 

That doesn't work for me. I understand the defence of the US population from foreign invaders could be seen as socialist or protecting society but then the military can also be used in aggressive ways that can de-stabilise the world and actually be a cause of damage to that society. Also those who fight in the military you could say are potentially sacrificed  so not good for their place in society (i.e. dead).

Also the military command structure is about very powerful people at the top and bullet fodder at the bottom not really designed around socialist principles of shared responsibility or common ownership etc. Not that I would ever suggest that you could have a military force managed by socialist principles.

 

National defense is a tradeable service. The United States government, takes money from people, what we call taxation. It funds an entity, called the military, to provide the service of national defense (among other illegitimate services.) All people are entitled to this defense equally. The activity of this entity, is centrally planned. That is as socialist as you can get. Just because it has other functions, many of which are aggressive, doesn't mean it isn't socialism. In fact, socialism's basis is aggression. The collective aggresses against the individual, by taking his property. This is true with or without government. Of course a socialist will tell you that the concept of holding property itself is aggressive, depending on his flavor of socialism, but that has no basis in natural rights arguments. 



ArnoldRimmer said:
I doubt most people could even properly explain what "socialism" actually is. Or "communism" etc.

In practice, the term is being used so inconsistently, arbitrarily and wrong that most people think that it's about the same as "communism". And even if they knew absolutely nothing about communism, they'd know that "capitalism" is good, "communism" is evil, so the same must apply for "socialism".

But these words have little real world relevance. Even America has never been a true capitalism, just like there was never a country that actually had true communism.


Basically Socialism is a true equality of opportunity where the state attempts to remediate to natural and social discriminations. It is a strong but not total state form. The transition to socialism can be slow and can be done keeping the republican/democratic model.

Communism is a total state in the sense that it doesn't just regulate the social and economical practices, it creates the social and economical practices. The transition to communism is supposed to be fast as it requires the "capture" of financial and structural assets.



bonzobanana said:

This article is about socialism as an economic system and political philosophy. For socialism specifically defined as a stage of development in Marxist theory, see Socialism (Marxism). For the concept where the state promotes the social and economic well-being of its citizens sometimes mistaken with socialism, see Welfare state.

 

I'd like to separately address this. Socialism did not start with Karl Marx, and it is not exclusive to Marxian theory. As for the Welfare-warfare state, F.A. Hayek - once a Democratic Socialist who converted to Classical Liberalism - provides a great explanation of how Democratic socialism incrementally progresses into tyranny, as the state demands more and more control over people's lives, because one's economic freedoms are intimately entangled with one's social freedoms. He explains the concept of collectivism vs. individualism, and how Nazism, Fascism, Communism, and Socialism are all rooted in the belief that individuals do not have rights, but collectives do, and it is illegitimate to have such systems encompass a liberal society (a rights-based society.) 

The Road to Serfdom by F.A. Hayek.  (Condensed Version)




sc94597 said:
bonzobanana said:

This article is about socialism as an economic system and political philosophy. For socialism specifically defined as a stage of development in Marxist theory, see Socialism (Marxism). For the concept where the state promotes the social and economic well-being of its citizens sometimes mistaken with socialism, see Welfare state.

 

I'd like to separately address this. Socialism did not start with Karl Marx, and it is not exclusive to Marxian theory. As for the Welfare-warfare state, F.A. Hayek - once a Democratic Socialist who converted to Classical Liberalism - provides a great explanation of how Democratic socialism incrementally progresses into tyranny, as the state demands more and more control over people's lives, because one's economic freedoms are intimately entangled with one's social freedoms. He explains the concept of collectivism vs. individualism, and how Nazism, Fascism, Communism, and Socialism are all rooted in the belief that individuals do not have rights, but collectives do, and it is illegitimate to have such systems encompass a liberal society (a rights-based society.) 

The Road to Serfdom by F.A. Hayek.  (Condensed Version)


This is untrue as well: socialism just takes different rights into account. It says that his right to basic housing and basic health care supercedes her right to own a third Mercedes Benz: the money that would have gone to the Benz goes to care for the other person.

It is merely the triumph of economic rights over property rights. At least in its more democratic form.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

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Mr Khan said:
sc94597 said:
bonzobanana said:

This article is about socialism as an economic system and political philosophy. For socialism specifically defined as a stage of development in Marxist theory, see Socialism (Marxism). For the concept where the state promotes the social and economic well-being of its citizens sometimes mistaken with socialism, see Welfare state.

 

I'd like to separately address this. Socialism did not start with Karl Marx, and it is not exclusive to Marxian theory. As for the Welfare-warfare state, F.A. Hayek - once a Democratic Socialist who converted to Classical Liberalism - provides a great explanation of how Democratic socialism incrementally progresses into tyranny, as the state demands more and more control over people's lives, because one's economic freedoms are intimately entangled with one's social freedoms. He explains the concept of collectivism vs. individualism, and how Nazism, Fascism, Communism, and Socialism are all rooted in the belief that individuals do not have rights, but collectives do, and it is illegitimate to have such systems encompass a liberal society (a rights-based society.) 

The Road to Serfdom by F.A. Hayek.  (Condensed Version)


This is untrue as well: socialism just takes different rights into account. It says that his right to basic housing and basic health care supercedes her right to own a third Mercedes Benz: the money that would have gone to the Benz goes to care for the other person.

It is merely the triumph of economic rights over property rights. At least in its more democratic form.

Those aren't natural rights. They might possibly be contractual obligations, but it would have to be a real contract and not the inconsistent concept of the "social contract." This is of course if we are assuming a deontological ethics position. Most socialists assume consequentialist ethics, and don't need to justify their actions with the concepts of rights or obligations. Which makes them illiberal. 



sc94597 said:
Mr Khan said:

This is untrue as well: socialism just takes different rights into account. It says that his right to basic housing and basic health care supercedes her right to own a third Mercedes Benz: the money that would have gone to the Benz goes to care for the other person.

It is merely the triumph of economic rights over property rights. At least in its more democratic form.

Those aren't natural rights. They might possibly be contractual obligations, but it would have to be a real contract and not the inconsistent concept of the "social contract." This is of course if we are assuming a deontological ethics position. Most socialists assume consequentialist ethics, and don't need to justify their actions with the concepts of rights or obligations. Which makes them illiberal. 

Right: freedom, like all things, is only good insofar as it is useful.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

But for your specific example, let me ask:

Where does he receive his right to live in a house and receive health-care, without exchanging something of equal value? If all parties chose to refuse health-care or housing to him, they do not want to work for nothing (or even if he can pay), how might these parties deny it? If they cannot, are they not slaves? If the care or house is funded by somebody else, say the woman who wants to buy her third Mercedes Benz, can she refuse? Let's say, no, she cannot, then you used the product of her time and haven't compensated her, is she not a slave? Her existence is only to serve him, is it not? Then she is a slave. Is slavery a liberal position? Is liberty (the antithesis of slavery) not a natural right? Those are all questions that arise in my mind from your example.





Mr Khan said:
sc94597 said:
Mr Khan said:
 

This is untrue as well: socialism just takes different rights into account. It says that his right to basic housing and basic health care supercedes her right to own a third Mercedes Benz: the money that would have gone to the Benz goes to care for the other person.

It is merely the triumph of economic rights over property rights. At least in its more democratic form.

Those aren't natural rights. They might possibly be contractual obligations, but it would have to be a real contract and not the inconsistent concept of the "social contract." This is of course if we are assuming a deontological ethics position. Most socialists assume consequentialist ethics, and don't need to justify their actions with the concepts of rights or obligations. Which makes them illiberal. 

Right: freedom, like all things, is only good insofar as it is useful.

Yes, but it must have an ethitical basis so as to have  a meaning to use. If anything can be declared a right, then the concept of a "right" has no basis nor meaning. I can declare the right to kill somebody, if it means 1,000 people will have their "right" of housing and health-care fullfilled. Maybe, if I kill this person the government gets to tax the inheritance 100% and provide these people with housing and healthcare. Would I not be right to kill him? Does the rights of these 1000 people supercede his right to life? See how ridiculous it is to label anything to be a right? 



sc94597 said:
Mr Khan said:

Right: freedom, like all things, is only good insofar as it is useful.

Yes, but it must have an ethitical basis so as to have  a meaning to use. If anything can be declared a right, then the concept of a "right" has no basis nor meaning. I can declare the right to kill somebody, if it means 1,000 people will have their "right" of housing and health-care fullfilled. Maybe, if I kill this person the government gets to tax the inheritance 100% and provide these people with housing and healthcare. Would I not be right to kill him? Does the rights of these 1000 people supercede his right to life? See how ridiculous it is to label anything to be a right? 

All rights are a human construct, the right of property included. We determine these rights through a collective discourse on what makes a just society, which is then enacted through democratic legislation. These rights can be based in a rank-order as well. I tend to reflect the Hierarchy of Needs, myself, which places the most basic needs as the most fundamental.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.