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Forums - Politics Discussion - USA's most predominate Roman Catholic State just passed Marriage Equality (Same Sex Marriage)

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sc94597 said:
Zappykins said:

 

Does that help with you question?  What are you trying to say?

This is not relevant to the fifth amendment though. The law you cited is a separate entity which invokes the positive rights secured in the fifth amendment. This means the fifth amendment does not need to be changed one bit, only the federal law. You made the point that the fifth amendment would need to be altered, I asked for clarification. 

" You would need to change over 15,000 Federal laws and statues – including the 5th amendment"

I realize Habeas corpus is very complex thing to understand.  Doesn't invalidate the point, that someone's attempt to make something simpler in the way they think it should, will often in effect, make things more complex.  As long as things are equal, I don't really care, but they chose the most simple and obvious solution.

You idea isn’t the first time anyone has suggested that.  It just seems to be coming from a non practical ideal that require significantly more work than a simple act of removing a bias that is not substantiated even in the most basic analysis required by civil law.

Rhode Island has made a simple and positive effect in it’s state’s civil code to remove gender bias regarding civil marriage rights by enacting Marriage Equality. Problem solved, marriages are to begin in August.

 



 

Really not sure I see any point of Consol over PC's since Kinect, Wii and other alternative ways to play have been abandoned. 

Top 50 'most fun' game list coming soon!

 

Tell me a funny joke!

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Zappykins said:
sc94597 said:
Zappykins said:
 

 

Does that help with you question?  What are you trying to say?

This is not relevant to the fifth amendment though. The law you cited is a separate entity which invokes the positive rights secured in the fifth amendment. This means the fifth amendment does not need to be changed one bit, only the federal law. You made the point that the fifth amendment would need to be altered, I asked for clarification. 

" You would need to change over 15,000 Federal laws and statues – including the 5th amendment"

 

I realize Habeas corpus is very complex thing to understand.  Doesn't invalidate the point, that someone's attempt to make something simpler in the way they think it should, will often in effect, make things more complex.  As long as things are equal, I don't really care, but they chose the most simple and obvious solution.

You idea isn’t the first time anyone has suggested that.  It just seems to be coming from a non practical ideal that require significantly more work than a simple act of removing a bias that is not substantiated even in the most basic analysis required by civil law.

Rhode Island has made a simple and positive effect in it’s state’s civil code to remove gender bias regarding civil marriage rights by enacting Marriage Equality. Problem solved, marriages are to begin in August.

 

 

I understand Habeas corpus very well, nowhere in the 800 year old tradition of habeas corpus; however, with the exception of special circumstances have certain groups been given special priveleges inherent to one's positive right to habeas corpus. The special priveleges are excess to habeaus corpus. Furthermore, inequality still exists. Married couples still have individual priveleges that unmarried couples do not have, and further, single people do not enjoy these priveleges either. It's not egalitarian, albeit I do commend the push for "more" fairness and equality, but ultimately a separation of marriage and government would give more to more people, including but not solely exclusive to gays. If you are to argue that single or unmarried people can get married to have these special priveleges then the same can be said about gays being married to women to gain special priveleges. All people should be treated equally under the law, regardless of their status in society. Hence, my position is more than a gay rights position, but a individual rights one which includes gay marriage individual rights as a subset. 



sc94597 said:
Zappykins said:
sc94597 said:
Zappykins said:
 

 

Does that help with you question?  What are you trying to say?

This is not relevant to the fifth amendment though. The law you cited is a separate entity which invokes the positive rights secured in the fifth amendment. This means the fifth amendment does not need to be changed one bit, only the federal law. You made the point that the fifth amendment would need to be altered, I asked for clarification. 

" You would need to change over 15,000 Federal laws and statues – including the 5th amendment"

 

I realize Habeas corpus is very complex thing to understand.  Doesn't invalidate the point, that someone's attempt to make something simpler in the way they think it should, will often in effect, make things more complex.  As long as things are equal, I don't really care, but they chose the most simple and obvious solution.

You idea isn’t the first time anyone has suggested that.  It just seems to be coming from a non practical ideal that require significantly more work than a simple act of removing a bias that is not substantiated even in the most basic analysis required by civil law.

Rhode Island has made a simple and positive effect in it’s state’s civil code to remove gender bias regarding civil marriage rights by enacting Marriage Equality. Problem solved, marriages are to begin in August.

 

 

I understand Habeas corpus very well, nowhere in the 800 year old tradition of habeas corpus; however, with the exception of special circumstances have certain groups been given special priveleges inherent to one's positive right to habeas corpus. The special priveleges are excess to habeaus corpus. Furthermore, inequality still exists. Married couples still have individual priveleges that unmarried couples do not have, and further, single people do not enjoy these priveleges either. It's not egalitarian, albeit I do commend the push for "more" fairness and equality, but ultimately a separation of marriage and government would give more to more people, including but not solely exclusive to gays. If you are to argue that single or unmarried people can get married to have these special priveleges then the same can be said about gays being married to women to gain special priveleges. All people should be treated equally under the law, regardless of their status in society. Hence, my position is more than a gay rights position, but a individual rights one which includes gay marriage individual rights as a subset. 

exactly. very well put



sc94597 said:
Zappykins said:
sc94597 said:
Zappykins said:
 

 

Does that help with you question?  What are you trying to say?

This is not relevant to the fifth amendment though. The law you cited is a separate entity which invokes the positive rights secured in the fifth amendment. This means the fifth amendment does not need to be changed one bit, only the federal law. You made the point that the fifth amendment would need to be altered, I asked for clarification. 

" You would need to change over 15,000 Federal laws and statues – including the 5th amendment"

 

I realize Habeas corpus is very complex thing to understand.  Doesn't invalidate the point, that someone's attempt to make something simpler in the way they think it should, will often in effect, make things more complex.  As long as things are equal, I don't really care, but they chose the most simple and obvious solution.

You idea isn’t the first time anyone has suggested that.  It just seems to be coming from a non practical ideal that require significantly more work than a simple act of removing a bias that is not substantiated even in the most basic analysis required by civil law.

Rhode Island has made a simple and positive effect in it’s state’s civil code to remove gender bias regarding civil marriage rights by enacting Marriage Equality. Problem solved, marriages are to begin in August.

 

 

I understand Habeas corpus very well, nowhere in the 800 year old tradition of habeas corpus; however, with the exception of special circumstances have certain groups been given special priveleges inherent to one's positive right to habeas corpus. The special priveleges are excess to habeaus corpus. Furthermore, inequality still exists. Married couples still have individual priveleges that unmarried couples do not have, and further, single people do not enjoy these priveleges either. It's not egalitarian, albeit I do commend the push for "more" fairness and equality, but ultimately a separation of marriage and government would give more to more people, including but not solely exclusive to gays. If you are to argue that single or unmarried people can get married to have these special priveleges then the same can be said about gays being married to women to gain special priveleges. All people should be treated equally under the law, regardless of their status in society. Hence, my position is more than a gay rights position, but a individual rights one which includes gay marriage individual rights as a subset. 

You are completely off topic.  If you want talk about the difference in unmarriared vs married rights that is a separate thing all together.  You are free not to get married - you are not forced to do that at all.  But if you chose to marry someone, your ability to do that should not be effected by the person's gender.

But denying certain couples rights and given them to others mealy because of the gender of the two people involved is what is solved by Marriage Equality - i.e. equal options to marry a person regardless of their gender.

Just in the same way the state can not withhold someone’s right to vote because of their gender.

PS I have seen so many opposite sex couples say, ‘Marriage is stupid? Why do I need a piece of paper saying I love someone?’  Until they see their tax, inheritance, insurance, social security, or others such things that effect their quality of life.  Then they go get married.

PPS Really?  Did I just read that?  Because if you looked back at 800 years old tradition of habeas corpus it is often giving certain people rights over others (men, land owners, kings, priest, lawyers, etc.)  That's one of the reason the USA broke away from England.



 

Really not sure I see any point of Consol over PC's since Kinect, Wii and other alternative ways to play have been abandoned. 

Top 50 'most fun' game list coming soon!

 

Tell me a funny joke!

Well yeah. American Catholics are a lot like American Jews.

When it happens in the most evangelical state.....



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Lafiel said:
sc94597 said:
Lafiel said:
In the past marriages between different ethnicities or different social backgrounds or different religions/confessions or ofcourse same sex mariages were banned, because other people had the power to do so.

That's why government has to get involved, as the consent of the elected representatives of all people living in a country is a powerful statement.

Only because government was involved in marriage. If there is no state to enforce such policies then there would be total liberty in this area. 

no, if religion for example says "it's wrong", then there will be people who enforce it, with or without government involvement

in the past (even nowadays) families/tribes often enforced it themselves

to have the liberty to marry whom you want to marry (consenting adults ofcourse) government has to be involved and say it's ok to do so


No they won't... because there would be absolutely zero way for them to stop people.



aikohualda said:
sc94597 said:
aikohualda said:
sc94597 said:
Lafiel said:
In the past marriages between different ethnicities or different social backgrounds or different religions/confessions or ofcourse same sex mariages were banned, because other people had the power to do so.

That's why government has to get involved, as the consent of the elected representatives of all people living in a country is a powerful statement.

Only because government was involved in marriage. If there is no state to enforce such policies then there would be total liberty in this area. 

if the government won't be involved do you think church would let gay people get married???????????????????????????????????????????????

no

There are plenty of churches that marry gay people in the states where it's legal. Furthermore, if government makes it legal instead of liberalizing marriage the same problem still exists. Government can't force these churches to marry gay people, or at least not in the United States ( a secular federation) can it. Finally, a church is not required to get married. 

goverment cant force the churches..... but they can implement a law. not all people get married in the churches BTW..... yes a church is not required to get married.... the government does it too... so if the government would not be involve what would happen? people are now only gonna get married by the churches... and that would also trample LAWS....

tax law, property law, health law, insurance law, etc etc..........

so yes the government needs to be involve...

If the government wasn't involved in marriage that would mean there wouldn't be any mention of marriage in government.

Meaning all of those laws would change.  Likely changed to a "Primary benefactor".

 

Also, lots of churches WANT to marry gay people.



Zappykins said:
sc94597 said:
Zappykins said:
sc94597 said:
Zappykins said:
 

 

 

 

 

 

PS I have seen so many opposite sex couples say, ‘Marriage is stupid? Why do I need a piece of paper saying I love someone?’  Until they see their tax, inheritance, insurance, social security, or others such things that effect their quality of life.  Then they go get married.

 

Though it's not really that related, it's worth noting how the OPPOSITE can effect somebody too.

 

Imagine being in love with somebody with bad credit.



Zappykins said:
sc94597 said:
Zappykins said:
sc94597 said:
Zappykins said:
 

 

Does that help with you question?  What are you trying to say?

This is not relevant to the fifth amendment though. The law you cited is a separate entity which invokes the positive rights secured in the fifth amendment. This means the fifth amendment does not need to be changed one bit, only the federal law. You made the point that the fifth amendment would need to be altered, I asked for clarification. 

" You would need to change over 15,000 Federal laws and statues – including the 5th amendment"

 

I realize Habeas corpus is very complex thing to understand.  Doesn't invalidate the point, that someone's attempt to make something simpler in the way they think it should, will often in effect, make things more complex.  As long as things are equal, I don't really care, but they chose the most simple and obvious solution.

You idea isn’t the first time anyone has suggested that.  It just seems to be coming from a non practical ideal that require significantly more work than a simple act of removing a bias that is not substantiated even in the most basic analysis required by civil law.

Rhode Island has made a simple and positive effect in it’s state’s civil code to remove gender bias regarding civil marriage rights by enacting Marriage Equality. Problem solved, marriages are to begin in August.

 

 

I understand Habeas corpus very well, nowhere in the 800 year old tradition of habeas corpus; however, with the exception of special circumstances have certain groups been given special priveleges inherent to one's positive right to habeas corpus. The special priveleges are excess to habeaus corpus. Furthermore, inequality still exists. Married couples still have individual priveleges that unmarried couples do not have, and further, single people do not enjoy these priveleges either. It's not egalitarian, albeit I do commend the push for "more" fairness and equality, but ultimately a separation of marriage and government would give more to more people, including but not solely exclusive to gays. If you are to argue that single or unmarried people can get married to have these special priveleges then the same can be said about gays being married to women to gain special priveleges. All people should be treated equally under the law, regardless of their status in society. Hence, my position is more than a gay rights position, but a individual rights one which includes gay marriage individual rights as a subset. 

You are completely off topic.  If you want talk about the difference in unmarriared vs married rights that is a separate thing all together.  You are free not to get married - you are not forced to do that at all.  But if you chose to marry someone, your ability to do that should not be effected by the person's gender.

But denying certain couples rights and given them to others mealy because of the gender of the two people involved is what is solved by Marriage Equality - i.e. equal options to marry a person regardless of their gender.

Just in the same way the state can not withhold someone’s right to vote because of their gender.

PS I have seen so many opposite sex couples say, ‘Marriage is stupid? Why do I need a piece of paper saying I love someone?’  Until they see their tax, inheritance, insurance, social security, or others such things that effect their quality of life.  Then they go get married.

PPS Really?  Did I just read that?  Because if you looked back at 800 years old tradition of habeas corpus it is often giving certain people rights over others (men, land owners, kings, priest, lawyers, etc.)  That's one of the reason the USA broke away from England.

 

It's not off-topic though. It is still relevant to the question of whether or not government has a place in marriage at all, which is relevant to the topic of gay marriage rights. My solution gives more people equality and more people rights, yours focuses on one specific group. Furthermore, habeas corpus is only the writ to see a judge. I was assuming in your description of habeas corpus you were also included due process of law, which is what the fifth amendment deals with even more specifically.



aikohualda said:
sc94597 said:
Lafiel said:
In the past marriages between different ethnicities or different social backgrounds or different religions/confessions or ofcourse same sex mariages were banned, because other people had the power to do so.

That's why government has to get involved, as the consent of the elected representatives of all people living in a country is a powerful statement.

Only because government was involved in marriage. If there is no state to enforce such policies then there would be total liberty in this area. 

if the government won't be involved do you think church would let gay people get married???????????????????????????????????????????????

no

Considering most churches wouldn't marry a gay couple, I think they'd turn to one of the thousands of other alternatives.



"We'll toss the dice however they fall,
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Then follow young Mat whenever he calls,
To dance with Jak o' the Shadows."

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