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Forums - Politics Discussion - Conservatism is not about the size of government.

richardhutnik said:

You see, due to what comes out of Republican talk, the idea that somehow conservative = "smaller government".  You hear over and over this out of some political talk.  But, reality is that it is not.  You have conservatives who will advocate for more government in the area of morals, more military and other things.  You see on the left also, anarchists who want no government.

Conservatism is about preserving the past, or return to times seen as superior.  Liberalism is about moving forward and advancing, and throwing out what is seen as standard form.

The real argument for size of government is more of a Libertarian vs Statists.  It can be argued that there has been a Conservative-Libertarian political fusion going on, which has confusing issues.

Ugh, out of time. Will let others comment.

You mean Progressive, not Liberalism.  Liberalism is actually synonymous with Libertarian views.  Democrats in the 60's were accused of being Liberals, but it was a miss use of the word by Republicans.

Progressives, both Republican and Democrat, have always been...well...progressive.  Doing things that caitor to the needs of US citizens.  Teddy Roosevelt, Dwight D. Eisenhower, even Richard M. Nixon were progressives within the Republican Party.  Nothing on the scale of Lydon Johnson or Franklyn D. Roosevelt, but they'd have a harder time finding a place in today's Republican Party than Susan Snowe.



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Adinnieken said:
richardhutnik said:

You see, due to what comes out of Republican talk, the idea that somehow conservative = "smaller government".  You hear over and over this out of some political talk.  But, reality is that it is not.  You have conservatives who will advocate for more government in the area of morals, more military and other things.  You see on the left also, anarchists who want no government.

Conservatism is about preserving the past, or return to times seen as superior.  Liberalism is about moving forward and advancing, and throwing out what is seen as standard form.

The real argument for size of government is more of a Libertarian vs Statists.  It can be argued that there has been a Conservative-Libertarian political fusion going on, which has confusing issues.

Ugh, out of time. Will let others comment.

You mean Progressive, not Liberalism.  Liberalism is actually synonymous with Libertarian views.  Democrats in the 60's were accused of being Liberals, but it was a miss use of the word by Republicans.

Progressives, both Republican and Democrat, have always been...well...progressive.  Doing things that caitor to the needs of US citizens.  Teddy Roosevelt, Dwight D. Eisenhower, even Richard M. Nixon were progressives within the Republican Party.  Nothing on the scale of Lydon Johnson or Franklyn D. Roosevelt, but they'd have a harder time finding a place in today's Republican Party than Susan Snowe.

I meant liberal when I said liberal.  What I did NOT state, which would of probably add more clarity, is Progressive, which is individuals who favor the use of more government to advance liberal causes.

I also meant to add in my last post the curious case of Ron Paul and how a number of Liberals worked on his campaign.  They supported Paul's reduction of government in areas that saw them getting more personal liberty, like the end of the drug war and so on.  

Size of government, and its function, is a measure of people's agendas and the belief in how much use of government will advance their causes.  



There is a great Reagan quote about this. "I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism".

In that way, you can see that even as late as the 1980's the underlying foundation of the Republican (Conservative) Party was still very much rooted in Libertarianism. The criticism levied against "conservatives" nowadays is of course the result of the Congress and the President between 2000-2008. During those years, Conservatives became the War Party, the tax-and-spend party, etc. Bush wanting to give everyone a house, "faith-based initiatives", and so forth. If you go back though, it really wasn't all that long ago that being conservative actually meant limited government and very Libertarian-like ideas.   Sort of the Robert Taft-era of conservatism has unfortunately been lost to the times.

They're still there, they're just being suffocated out by the big-government conservatives like Rick Santorum and others like him. The ones that say they're "very conservative" but they believe in more government laws and regulations to force their values on other people. Those types of conservatives are the very opposite of what a real conservative is, and frankly they make us look bad.



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Conservatism and Liberalism are purely context-based terms. Really, liberalism should properly be called radicalism, compared to conservatism, its just that change has so long been married to the notion of freedoms that the two are largely inseparable.



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Screamapillar said:

There is a great Reagan quote about this. "I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism".

In that way, you can see that even as late as the 1980's the underlying foundation of the Republican (Conservative) Party was still very much rooted in Libertarianism. The criticism levied against "conservatives" nowadays is of course the result of the Congress and the President between 2000-2008. During those years, Conservatives became the War Party, the tax-and-spend party, etc. Bush wanting to give everyone a house, "faith-based initiatives", and so forth. If you go back though, it really wasn't all that long ago that being conservative actually meant limited government and very Libertarian-like ideas.   Sort of the Robert Taft-era of conservatism has unfortunately been lost to the times.

They're still there, they're just being suffocated out by the big-government conservatives like Rick Santorum and others like him. The ones that say they're "very conservative" but they believe in more government laws and regulations to force their values on other people. Those types of conservatives are the very opposite of what a real conservative is, and frankly they make us look bad.

What I am contending here is that core values that make liberal liberal and conservative conservative is pretty consistent.  The means may change though, along with opinions of government.  Only reason where i can see conservative being what it is now, is that the past would of seen less government, and the left ended up going statist through Communism, and secular powers and the user of government to affect change.  Standing in opposition to that ended up naturally being opposed to government.  But, go back to the era prior to when Classic Liberal came in, and I believe you see conservative being VERY statist.  Hobbes, for example, is conservative, and he argues for the state.



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richardhutnik said:
Adinnieken said:
richardhutnik said:

You see, due to what comes out of Republican talk, the idea that somehow conservative = "smaller government".  You hear over and over this out of some political talk.  But, reality is that it is not.  You have conservatives who will advocate for more government in the area of morals, more military and other things.  You see on the left also, anarchists who want no government.

Conservatism is about preserving the past, or return to times seen as superior.  Liberalism is about moving forward and advancing, and throwing out what is seen as standard form.

The real argument for size of government is more of a Libertarian vs Statists.  It can be argued that there has been a Conservative-Libertarian political fusion going on, which has confusing issues.

Ugh, out of time. Will let others comment.

You mean Progressive, not Liberalism.  Liberalism is actually synonymous with Libertarian views.  Democrats in the 60's were accused of being Liberals, but it was a miss use of the word by Republicans.

Progressives, both Republican and Democrat, have always been...well...progressive.  Doing things that caitor to the needs of US citizens.  Teddy Roosevelt, Dwight D. Eisenhower, even Richard M. Nixon were progressives within the Republican Party.  Nothing on the scale of Lydon Johnson or Franklyn D. Roosevelt, but they'd have a harder time finding a place in today's Republican Party than Susan Snowe.

I meant liberal when I said liberal.  What I did NOT state, which would of probably add more clarity, is Progressive, which is individuals who favor the use of more government to advance liberal causes.

I also meant to add in my last post the curious case of Ron Paul and how a number of Liberals worked on his campaign.  They supported Paul's reduction of government in areas that saw them getting more personal liberty, like the end of the drug war and so on.  

Size of government, and its function, is a measure of people's agendas and the belief in how much use of government will advance their causes.  

No, Liberal is a label used by Republicans on Democrats who were/are socialists, because those socialists at the time (the 1960's) were for more government social programs, free love, and open drug use.   True Liberals, however are for truly small, limited government and against government intrusion into private lives.

Progressives are socially progressive in their views, they can be fiscally progressive, moderate, or conservative.  The common theme, however, is that they believe government can benefit people by solving problems.

People aren't necessarily Conservative or Progressive.  They can be fiscally conservative yet socially progressive, or fiscally progressive yet socially conservative.  It's by no means cut or dry, which is the problem with today's politics.  Too many people, especially those on the right but not limited to them, think you must hold exactly the same views in order to be a Conservative.  Otherwise you're liberal. 

If you don't believe me, there was an episode of FrontLine back during the Bush administration that discussed how Bush won the election in 2000 with the aid of Christian conservatives.  One of the evangelical ministers that supported Bush put it succinctly when he said if you don't believe in what I believe, then you're not a conservative.  Which oddly enough put him in direct conflict with another minister who was also a Bush supporter but held far less conservative views.

It's a world view that becomes narrower and narrower based on who applies it.  If eventually everyone on the right believes it's only what they believe that is conservative or not, eventually there will only be one true conservative.



outlawauron said:
Kantor said:
I agree completely, and that's why I dislike the use of the word "conservative". It doesn't mean "conservative" at all: trying to constitutionally ban gay marriage, overturn all gun control legislation and prohibit abortion are not conservative, they are positively radical.

Republicans are trying to overturn Roe vs. Wade? Who knew.

I also think it's funny you criticize people for voting against legislature that is all reactionary to the crisises that have happened (especially with all of the evidence against gun control). You also fseem to forget that the DOMA act was passed with Clinton as President. Unless you're referring to state constitutions which have passed in the great majority of states. I'm not advocating for any of the views or platforms, just think your whitewashing is dumb.

You said Republican. I said conservative.



(Former) Lead Moderator and (Eternal) VGC Detective

Republicans = Democrat light. They dont stand for anything anymore, not conservatism or anything, its whichever wind direction is blowing now. Republican should not even be in the same sentence as conservatism.

 

But im no statist and want to be left alone by the governemnt, they are screwing up everything and costing me alot of money.



 

Adinnieken said:
richardhutnik said:

I meant liberal when I said liberal.  What I did NOT state, which would of probably add more clarity, is Progressive, which is individuals who favor the use of more government to advance liberal causes.

I also meant to add in my last post the curious case of Ron Paul and how a number of Liberals worked on his campaign.  They supported Paul's reduction of government in areas that saw them getting more personal liberty, like the end of the drug war and so on.  

Size of government, and its function, is a measure of people's agendas and the belief in how much use of government will advance their causes.  

No, Liberal is a label used by Republicans on Democrats who were/are socialists, because those socialists at the time (the 1960's) were for more government social programs, free love, and open drug use.   True Liberals, however are for truly small, limited government and against government intrusion into private lives.

Progressives are socially progressive in their views, they can be fiscally progressive, moderate, or conservative.  The common theme, however, is that they believe government can benefit people by solving problems.

People aren't necessarily Conservative or Progressive.  They can be fiscally conservative yet socially progressive, or fiscally progressive yet socially conservative.  It's by no means cut or dry, which is the problem with today's politics.  Too many people, especially those on the right but not limited to them, think you must hold exactly the same views in order to be a Conservative.  Otherwise you're liberal. 

If you don't believe me, there was an episode of FrontLine back during the Bush administration that discussed how Bush won the election in 2000 with the aid of Christian conservatives.  One of the evangelical ministers that supported Bush put it succinctly when he said if you don't believe in what I believe, then you're not a conservative.  Which oddly enough put him in direct conflict with another minister who was also a Bush supporter but held far less conservative views.

It's a world view that becomes narrower and narrower based on who applies it.  If eventually everyone on the right believes it's only what they believe that is conservative or not, eventually there will only be one true conservative.

I am going with actually definitions, and not how words are used in a derogatory manner.  I know that "liberal" is thrown around as a slur to deride certain individuals and undermine argument.  But that isn't what it means.  You did touch on some of it, and yes you can argue "Progressive'' is a better term to use for people who are more pro-government.  These people, as a rule, will generally be liberal in what they promote though:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/progressive

If it involves enacting proactive change.  There are social conservatives who do also want to use government to end up getting involved with people's lives and outlaw things.  But I did place Progressive under the liberal wing of politics because that is what fits best, despite turning "liberal" into a slur.



These American politicians don't seem to know what they believe, just show them the money and they will believe what you want. That's what it seems like anyway



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