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Forums - Politics Discussion - NYT: Let’s Give Up on the Constitution

KylieDog said:
sc94597 said:
KylieDog said:
Kasz216 said:

Maybe in another 40 years he'll realize there are things called constitutional amendments that are supposed to be used to change things in the constitution that no longer are of use.


Like everyone needing a gun?

Sure, if they follow Article V. That's of course nowhere near likely to pass, so politicians choose unconstitional means to rid Americans of the second amendment. 

The Congress, whenever two thirds of both houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose amendments to this Constitution, or, on the application of the legislatures of two thirds of the several states, shall call a convention for proposing amendments, which, in either case, shall be valid to all intents and purposes, as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the legislatures of three fourths of the several states, or by conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other mode of ratification may be proposed by the Congress; provided that no amendment which may be made prior to the year one thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any manner affect the first and fourth clauses in the ninth section of the first article; and that no state, without its consent, shall be deprived of its equal suffrage in the Senate.


You clearly missed the point.

No I get your point and the point of my post is that Americans disagree with your sentiment, otherwise it would be repealed through constitutional means. In fact, if there was any point it could've been repealed it was in the 1950's, before any of these mass shootings occured. Almost 60% of Americans supported total gun prohibition then. Today only about 26% do. 

 



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KylieDog said:
sc94597 said:

No I get your point and the point of my post is that Americans disagree with your sentiment, otherwise it would be repealed through constitutional means. In fact, if there was any point it could've been repealed it was in the 1950's, before any of these mass shootings occured. Almost 60% of Americans supported total gun prohibition then. Today only about 26% do. 

 


...and there you go, the constitution protects things bad for the public

If it was bad for the public people would agree and support such an amendment. All power is derived from people, and in order to do this one must trust the people make reasonable decisions. Otherwise, we might as well go back to monarchies or oligarchies. If anything though the constitution protects people from mob rule, because a majority can't vote away the rights of a minority to the federal or governments. 



Observing America as I have over the last couple decades it seems that the constitution is a superb code of laws but is being violated all the time. The only difference now is that it is being done overtly and especially since the introduction of the PATRIOT act. The bill of rights seem to be more of a historical document than a legal statute at this stage.




 

 

badgenome said:
Aielyn said:

And if you pay close attention, the constitution wasn't granting the right to bear arms to permit self-defense within the country. It was rather explicit - it was to permit defense of country from those who might invade. In other words, it was permitting a reserve army - also known as a "well-regulated militia" (hence the use of that term in the amendment).

If you have an anti-gun agenda and ignore all context, then sure. However, it is abundantly clear that people of the time interpreted the right to firearm ownership as being undivorceable from one's right to self-defense against both brigands and tyrants.

but dont you know that the 2nd amendment is a individual right, its a collective right....  but the 1st amendment is umm.. an individual right... groups of people dont have the right to free speech.

 

dont you know this.



sc94597 said:
Actually it would be state legislators (not congress) who would rewrite the constitution, since it was initially a contract of the states, but still I don't trust the states either.


Key word is "initially". Lincoln basically ensured that the states can not terminate the contract. It's not a contract anymore.



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KylieDog said:
sc94597 said:
KylieDog said:
sc94597 said:

No I get your point and the point of my post is that Americans disagree with your sentiment, otherwise it would be repealed through constitutional means. In fact, if there was any point it could've been repealed it was in the 1950's, before any of these mass shootings occured. Almost 60% of Americans supported total gun prohibition then. Today only about 26% do. 

 


...and there you go, the constitution protects things bad for the public

If it was bad for the public people would agree and support such an amendment. All power is derived from people, and in order to do this one must trust the people make reasonable decisions. Otherwise, we might as well go back to monarchies or oligarchies. If anything though the constitution protects people from mob rule, because a majority can't vote away the rights of a minority to the federal or governments. 


...but you aren't protecting a minority, you're putting lethal things into the hands of masses when it is proven more and more as time goes on that the masses are not responsible.


No offense but I'm glad that you don't have any power. The people need weapons to be able to resist their government if the need ever arises. All tyrants strip the people of firearms before abusing them. The American government is currently a farcical misrepresentation of the intents of the founding fathers and I shudder to think what would happen if the people were entirely unable to resist their will. I am a firm believer in the decentralization of power as it makes it difficult for corrupt individuals to misuse theirs. You do realize that if guns were banned that criminals would still have access to them and if not, they would simply use explosives or other weapons.



killerzX said:

but dont you know that the 2nd amendment is a individual right, its a collective right....  but the 1st amendment is umm.. an individual right... groups of people dont have the right to free speech.

 

dont you know this.

The first amendment only applies to journalists. Don't you know this?



KylieDog said:
sc94597 said:
KylieDog said:
sc94597 said:

No I get your point and the point of my post is that Americans disagree with your sentiment, otherwise it would be repealed through constitutional means. In fact, if there was any point it could've been repealed it was in the 1950's, before any of these mass shootings occured. Almost 60% of Americans supported total gun prohibition then. Today only about 26% do. 

 


...and there you go, the constitution protects things bad for the public

If it was bad for the public people would agree and support such an amendment. All power is derived from people, and in order to do this one must trust the people make reasonable decisions. Otherwise, we might as well go back to monarchies or oligarchies. If anything though the constitution protects people from mob rule, because a majority can't vote away the rights of a minority to the federal or governments. 


...but you aren't protecting a minority, you're putting lethal things into the hands of masses when it is proven more and more as time goes on that the masses are not responsible.

And most Americans disagree that prohibition would be an answer to anything. Case closed. We have power, and we decide what happens legally by voting for our representatives whom represent our views as close as possible, but also when making laws they're supposed to be properly educated on the matter and consider disadvantages of making a law.  And I wasn't referring to this when I mentioned the protections the constitution DOES give us. 

Anyway, if what you say is true, certainly there will be an amendment to the constitution. But, from the various statistics I've read on the topic, and the consideration of disadvantages of disarming an entire population, as well as the practical concerns of trying to take over 300 million lethal weapons from over 100 million persons I disagree that prohibition is a solution to anything, but especially to guns and most Americans agree with me. Therefore, new legislation that does ban guns outright or a constitution amendment is not in sight because of valid reasons and because of valid considerations. It will remain so if things are done legally and the government doesn't overstep the power it was given. 



badgenome said:
killerzX said:

but dont you know that the 2nd amendment is a individual right, its a collective right....  but the 1st amendment is umm.. an individual right... groups of people dont have the right to free speech.

 

dont you know this.

The first amendment only applies to journalists. Don't you know this?

the founding fathers could have never invisioned high powered assault journalists!

1A it is out dated



KylieDog said:
bouzane said:
KylieDog said:


...but you aren't protecting a minority, you're putting lethal things into the hands of masses when it is proven more and more as time goes on that the masses are not responsible.


No offense but I'm glad that you don't have any power. The people need weapons to be able to resist their government if the need ever arises.


Take this nonsense elsewhere.  The time of civil war in first world countries like the US is long gone.


Weren't Germany and Italy developed nations when the fascists seized power? Want a more recent example, how about Yugoslavia? Sorry but saying "not here, not now" doesn't make the problem go away. No offense but your belief that the public should disarm and hand all power over to an increasingly corrupt government is absolutely ludicrous.