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Forums - Politics Discussion - California Schools Taking out CAB loans

richardhutnik said:

The reality is that Ayn Rand worship had overwhelmed the GOP.

LOL. No. The reality is that the Republicans are a uselessly centrist party who suck at politics, while the Democrats keep moving further and further to the left on almost every single issue and the majority of the media provides cover for them by pretending that only Republican positions are extreme. See: abortion. The mainstream position on abortion is that it should be legal up to a point, and that a viable fetus should not be terminated without reason. The Democratic Party has drifted so far left on the issue that the pro-life Democrat is basically extinct, but you won't hear a word about how this represents a radicalization of the party to the point that no Democrat can challenge this dogma without being called anti-woman. While the media ceaselessly tried to tie every single pro-life Republican to Todd Akin, they have never spent a single second scrutinizing Obama's equally extreme position of abortion any time, anywhere, for any reason, paid for by tax payers.

richardhutnik said:

Combine this with the Tea Party mentality of "We are a Republic NOT a Democracy" and you have a mindset that there are people, the rich and successful, who are an entirely different species of humans, and worthy of all they get, than the slimy underclass who won't take responsibility for themselves.

I don't exactly see how the idea that the United States is a republic and not a democracy has anything to do with your jumping at Ayn Rand-shaped shadows, but as far as I'm concerned the "Tea Party mentality" (also, the founding fathers' mentality) that there ought to be a hedge against a tyranny of the majority is charmingly quaint in this day and age of unbridled government and much preferable to the left's mentality that the Constitution is just so much toilet paper.



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First Detroit now California.... LIBERALS ARE ON A ROLL LOL.



badgenome said:
richardhutnik said:

The reality is that Ayn Rand worship had overwhelmed the GOP.

LOL. No. The reality is that the Republicans are a uselessly centrist party who suck at politics, while the Democrats keep moving further and further to the left on almost every single issue and the majority of the media provides cover for them by pretending that only Republican positions are extreme. See: abortion. The mainstream position on abortion is that it should be legal up to a point, and that a viable fetus should not be terminated without reason. The Democratic Party has drifted so far left on the issue that the pro-life Democrat is basically extinct, but you won't hear a word about how this represents a radicalization of the party to the point that no Democrat can challenge this dogma without being called anti-woman. While the media ceaselessly tried to tie every single pro-life Republican to Todd Akin, they have never spent a single second scrutinizing Obama's equally extreme position of abortion any time, anywhere, for any reason, paid for by tax payers.

richardhutnik said:

Combine this with the Tea Party mentality of "We are a Republic NOT a Democracy" and you have a mindset that there are people, the rich and successful, who are an entirely different species of humans, and worthy of all they get, than the slimy underclass who won't take responsibility for themselves.

I don't exactly see how the idea that the United States is a republic and not a democracy has anything to do with your jumping at Ayn Rand-shaped shadows, but as far as I'm concerned the "Tea Party mentality" (also, the founding fathers' mentality) that there ought to be a hedge against a tyranny of the majority is charmingly quaint in this day and age of unbridled government and much preferable to the left's mentality that the Constitution is just so much toilet paper.

America is a democracy that elects representatives, outside of some local and state initivaties.  It elects representatives that are to respond to the will of the people and temper extremes.  You can also have non-democratic republics which are dictatorial, and one party rule.  America isn't that.  You has the U.S.S.R that was a socialostic republic.  For a democratic republic to work, you need to have a sufficiently independent and self-reliant public, and sufficiently educated, in order to have the will of the people properly represented.

This democratic republic mentality grew post the founding fathers and was subject to debate also.  You had eltists who wanted to end up being governed by an upper class, and you had the populist side.  Originally, Democrat and Republican represented the differences in these mindsets.  As of now, it is a big blur, with both the Republican and Democratic parties representing collections of interests groups and negotiated truces between them.  The GOP side happens to currently represent a collection of interests groups that isn't sufficient to get elected.

The heart of the issue here is whether or not the people should rule themselves, or if they need to be governed by elites.  Anything else is a matter of degree and implementation.



richardhutnik said:
Kasz216 said:
By the way, I think the real reason school systems are failing is.... like increases in wealth disparity.

It's demographics. Which nobody looks at... instead trying to throw money at the problem, which won't help. See the above chart with real spending, or by just trying to get teachers to work harder. (and not smarter.)

Just for a single example of demographics change...

In outliers Malcolm Gladwell showed that parent participation during summer breaks was possibly the biggest cause for the gap between children's intelligence during when it came to children. Those parents who had there kids do things like go to zoo's museums and do a library reading list far outpaced those who didn't. Regardless of the socioeconomic status.

I will admit i am biased towards such an idea thanks to my own childhood. Since, thanks to my parents, I could read, write, add, subtract and Multiply before I even entered Kindergarten. So I've seen how effective invested parents can be.

I had mentioned, ok yes in a partisan shot, at how things are falling apart.  I believe what you said touches on this.  You get things in motion going bad, and a nation can unravel.  Wealth disparity playing part, but also a symptom of things deeper.  Thing going on now is increasing one family incomes and one parent, and parent working all the time (facing declining wages) and kids not getting attention.  And this leads to bad effects in the future.  And those effects make things get even worse.  It is not a good spot to be in actually.

Actually, wealth disparity is also a symptom of that.  If you look at the data you'll see Individual Gini Coefficent has actually shrunk/stayed the same, while household and Family gini coefficent has increased.


The poor indvidual is actually making a lot more money on average then they have been decades ago.  This is espiecally true if you count non wage income.  (These are both accounting for inflation.)

The issues in the current rise in wealth dispairty are due to two things.

1) There are far more single parent /single person households on the bottom end of the spectrum...

2) The rich are more often marrying the rich.  Meaning it's much harder to "Marry up" out of poverty.  (Due to women in the workplace, the rise of suburbs, gated communities.)

 

Again, this is not to say there isn't a very small 1% or more like .1% that are getting more and more rich.  However, they aren't getting rich off the poor's backs, but at the expense of the lesser rich.

 



Kasz216 said:
richardhutnik said:
Kasz216 said:
By the way, I think the real reason school systems are failing is.... like increases in wealth disparity.

It's demographics. Which nobody looks at... instead trying to throw money at the problem, which won't help. See the above chart with real spending, or by just trying to get teachers to work harder. (and not smarter.)

Just for a single example of demographics change...

In outliers Malcolm Gladwell showed that parent participation during summer breaks was possibly the biggest cause for the gap between children's intelligence during when it came to children. Those parents who had there kids do things like go to zoo's museums and do a library reading list far outpaced those who didn't. Regardless of the socioeconomic status.

I will admit i am biased towards such an idea thanks to my own childhood. Since, thanks to my parents, I could read, write, add, subtract and Multiply before I even entered Kindergarten. So I've seen how effective invested parents can be.

I had mentioned, ok yes in a partisan shot, at how things are falling apart.  I believe what you said touches on this.  You get things in motion going bad, and a nation can unravel.  Wealth disparity playing part, but also a symptom of things deeper.  Thing going on now is increasing one family incomes and one parent, and parent working all the time (facing declining wages) and kids not getting attention.  And this leads to bad effects in the future.  And those effects make things get even worse.  It is not a good spot to be in actually.

Actually, wealth disparity is also a symptom of that.  If you look at the data you'll see Individual Gini Coefficent has actually shrunk/stayed the same, while household and Family gini coefficent has increased.


The poor indvidual is actually making a lot more money on average then they have been decades ago.  This is espiecally true if you count non wage income.  (These are both accounting for inflation.)

The issues in the current rise in wealth dispairty are due to two things.

1) There are far more single parent /single person households on the bottom end of the spectrum...

2) The rich are more often marrying the rich.  Meaning it's much harder to "Marry up" out of poverty.  (Due to women in the workplace, the rise of suburbs, gated communities.)

 

Again, this is not to say there isn't a very small 1% or more like .1% that are getting more and more rich.  However, they aren't getting rich off the poor's backs, but at the expense of the lesser rich.

 

I believe what you saw was that households went from one income to two incomes, and then divorce rates went up, so there was one bread winner in the house.  The anything but the upper end flatlined actually, and other costs went up.  Now add globalization and the loss of manufacturing jobs.  And the bottom part, has fallen behind, if you factor in inflation.  Globalization and competing with China plays a part.  Most new jobs created are low end retail and low paid jobs.  Stuff more immune to globalization is on low end, if can be done with a lot, or if benefitting from globalization (as in scarce globally) results in these people doing real well.  America has run out of places to get more money to keep up.  Credit cards are maxed out, and the borrow from equity is not there.

We pretty much have infrastructure with colleges at one level, and medical at one level, making costs to survive expensive, and the ability to pay not there.  Currently, I am working a low paying helpdesk at home, and cheating severely to make it by not paying rent while staying with family.  I am going to need to see what happens with my Medicaid.  If I didn't have Medicaid actually, I probably wouldn't of been fixed enough to do a desk job (bad disk = no sitting, thus no desk job).



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richardhutnik said:
Kasz216 said:
richardhutnik said:
Kasz216 said:
By the way, I think the real reason school systems are failing is.... like increases in wealth disparity.

It's demographics. Which nobody looks at... instead trying to throw money at the problem, which won't help. See the above chart with real spending, or by just trying to get teachers to work harder. (and not smarter.)

Just for a single example of demographics change...

In outliers Malcolm Gladwell showed that parent participation during summer breaks was possibly the biggest cause for the gap between children's intelligence during when it came to children. Those parents who had there kids do things like go to zoo's museums and do a library reading list far outpaced those who didn't. Regardless of the socioeconomic status.

I will admit i am biased towards such an idea thanks to my own childhood. Since, thanks to my parents, I could read, write, add, subtract and Multiply before I even entered Kindergarten. So I've seen how effective invested parents can be.

I had mentioned, ok yes in a partisan shot, at how things are falling apart.  I believe what you said touches on this.  You get things in motion going bad, and a nation can unravel.  Wealth disparity playing part, but also a symptom of things deeper.  Thing going on now is increasing one family incomes and one parent, and parent working all the time (facing declining wages) and kids not getting attention.  And this leads to bad effects in the future.  And those effects make things get even worse.  It is not a good spot to be in actually.

Actually, wealth disparity is also a symptom of that.  If you look at the data you'll see Individual Gini Coefficent has actually shrunk/stayed the same, while household and Family gini coefficent has increased.


The poor indvidual is actually making a lot more money on average then they have been decades ago.  This is espiecally true if you count non wage income.  (These are both accounting for inflation.)

The issues in the current rise in wealth dispairty are due to two things.

1) There are far more single parent /single person households on the bottom end of the spectrum...

2) The rich are more often marrying the rich.  Meaning it's much harder to "Marry up" out of poverty.  (Due to women in the workplace, the rise of suburbs, gated communities.)

 

Again, this is not to say there isn't a very small 1% or more like .1% that are getting more and more rich.  However, they aren't getting rich off the poor's backs, but at the expense of the lesser rich.

 

I believe what you saw was that households went from one income to two incomes, and then divorce rates went up, so there was one bread winner in the house.  The anything but the upper end flatlined actually, and other costs went up.  Now add globalization and the loss of manufacturing jobs.  And the bottom part, has fallen behind, if you factor in inflation.  Globalization and competing with China plays a part.  Most new jobs created are low end retail and low paid jobs.  Stuff more immune to globalization is on low end, if can be done with a lot, or if benefitting from globalization (as in scarce globally) results in these people doing real well.  America has run out of places to get more money to keep up.  Credit cards are maxed out, and the borrow from equity is not there.

We pretty much have infrastructure with colleges at one level, and medical at one level, making costs to survive expensive, and the ability to pay not there.  Currently, I am working a low paying helpdesk at home, and cheating severely to make it by not paying rent while staying with family.  I am going to need to see what happens with my Medicaid.  If I didn't have Medicaid actually, I probably wouldn't of been fixed enough to do a desk job (bad disk = no sitting, thus no desk job).

Again... that's not actually true when you count individual earnings.  (The flatlining)

As for the creation of low end jobs.

For that to be true and individual gini coefficent to be down.  That would mean that "Real Median household income" would need to be down.

Which it isn't.   Well it has been from 2008 to 2011.... (and still plummeting) however that hasn't been a long term thing.



thranx said:
Kasz216 said:

Eh, they'll default, and they'll replace those school districts with new ones... the lawyers will have a hell of a time repossessing anything of value, since I think the buildings would still belong to the state. Not the school district. (I could be wrong on this.)

Or their city/state governments will just pass laws telling the lenders to go to hell.


Or the school districts will get bailed out.

Those are the three options. Really if anything i'd say the people who lent to them were taking the big risk.

 

They'll probably go with the first option too, because I don't think you can legally tie the state or county to something the school board decided.  If it wasn't California i'd say the state would probably use it to union bust, but it is, so that probably won't happen.  They MAY force the teachers to be rehired and take a paycut.  Though even then the teacher union probably won't go for it.  So it'll probably  just be all the same, but different name.  Different school board.

That does make the most sence. I currently live in California, and it amazes me how bad our state government has been, and we keep re electing the same people over and over. The business climate is horrible, a lot of regulation for everything, and a lot of corruption in local city and county governement.

 

 

@richard

California is currently being completly run by democrats, and before that is was always majority democrat so i do not see how the republicans or conservatives are the issue. If anything it is the over regulation and over taxation of residents and businesses that are casuing problems for the state. There is a very well off region that passes regultions that all of CA have to follow that don't neccissarily benefit all Californians.

I used to be very fundamentalist about this liberal thinking too.  I thought over regulation was the main  problem, but it was the lack of regulation of the banking system which drove pretty much all western economy to an abysm.

 



zumnupy10 said:
thranx said:
Kasz216 said:

Eh, they'll default, and they'll replace those school districts with new ones... the lawyers will have a hell of a time repossessing anything of value, since I think the buildings would still belong to the state. Not the school district. (I could be wrong on this.)

Or their city/state governments will just pass laws telling the lenders to go to hell.


Or the school districts will get bailed out.

Those are the three options. Really if anything i'd say the people who lent to them were taking the big risk.

 

They'll probably go with the first option too, because I don't think you can legally tie the state or county to something the school board decided.  If it wasn't California i'd say the state would probably use it to union bust, but it is, so that probably won't happen.  They MAY force the teachers to be rehired and take a paycut.  Though even then the teacher union probably won't go for it.  So it'll probably  just be all the same, but different name.  Different school board.

That does make the most sence. I currently live in California, and it amazes me how bad our state government has been, and we keep re electing the same people over and over. The business climate is horrible, a lot of regulation for everything, and a lot of corruption in local city and county governement.

 

 

@richard

California is currently being completly run by democrats, and before that is was always majority democrat so i do not see how the republicans or conservatives are the issue. If anything it is the over regulation and over taxation of residents and businesses that are casuing problems for the state. There is a very well off region that passes regultions that all of CA have to follow that don't neccissarily benefit all Californians.

I used to be very fundamentalist about this liberal thinking too.  I thought over regulation was the main  problem, but it was the lack of regulation of the banking system which drove pretty much all western economy to an abysm.

 

thats not true. it is ineffective regulation that caused the banking problem. In CA over regulation and taxation are a problem, there is no way around it. We probably have more regulation than any other state and it makes it hard to do business here. Because of this many businesses are leaving the state, meaning less jobs and taxes to go around.



thranx said:
zumnupy10 said:
thranx said:
Kasz216 said:

Eh, they'll default, and they'll replace those school districts with new ones... the lawyers will have a hell of a time repossessing anything of value, since I think the buildings would still belong to the state. Not the school district. (I could be wrong on this.)

Or their city/state governments will just pass laws telling the lenders to go to hell.


Or the school districts will get bailed out.

Those are the three options. Really if anything i'd say the people who lent to them were taking the big risk.

 

They'll probably go with the first option too, because I don't think you can legally tie the state or county to something the school board decided.  If it wasn't California i'd say the state would probably use it to union bust, but it is, so that probably won't happen.  They MAY force the teachers to be rehired and take a paycut.  Though even then the teacher union probably won't go for it.  So it'll probably  just be all the same, but different name.  Different school board.

That does make the most sence. I currently live in California, and it amazes me how bad our state government has been, and we keep re electing the same people over and over. The business climate is horrible, a lot of regulation for everything, and a lot of corruption in local city and county governement.

 

 

@richard

California is currently being completly run by democrats, and before that is was always majority democrat so i do not see how the republicans or conservatives are the issue. If anything it is the over regulation and over taxation of residents and businesses that are casuing problems for the state. There is a very well off region that passes regultions that all of CA have to follow that don't neccissarily benefit all Californians.

I used to be very fundamentalist about this liberal thinking too.  I thought over regulation was the main  problem, but it was the lack of regulation of the banking system which drove pretty much all western economy to an abysm.

 

thats not true. it is ineffective regulation that caused the banking problem. In CA over regulation and taxation are a problem, there is no way around it. We probably have more regulation than any other state and it makes it hard to do business here. Because of this many businesses are leaving the state, meaning less jobs and taxes to go around.

Well... I wouldn't say it was ineffective regulation.  I'd say it was ineffective regulators.



Kasz216 said:
richardhutnik said:
Kasz216 said:
richardhutnik said:

Little by little, the implosion of the middle class, and the sliding into third-world status appears to be happening for America. You try to keep up minimums of what had been norms for maintaining middle class lifestyle, and it folds. Money won't be there at this point. Create a system where you can't raise taxes and keep costs down, and go into the debt spiral. At this point it is flush. Look for end of Pax Americana to happen. Neo-Cons can take down the GOP at this point. Social conservatives can also do the same with their push for the drug war, which won't be sustainable, so it gets ended and they they don't have a home. Then we can pull the plug on the welfare state and have people pour out on the streets. Mutual aid societies? HA! You will get mutual defense societies, and those who were now booted out, the 47% (you know, the types who won't take responsibility for themselves) seen as vermin, and gun them down.

You will have massive unrest and you can elect a charismatic leader who will take a cannon to the mob the way Napoleon did. I expect Fox News to position this as favorable, explaining that it were subhumans being shot down anyhow.

I find it weird how you constantly find ways to blame the people that haven't been in power for everything.  I mean, we are talking California here.  Granted they had Arnold but basically his whole govonorership was everybody being mad that he even attempted to carry out his campaign promises.

The problem of the implosion is larger than either party.  Yes, I vent about the impact to the GOP, but the problem is larger.  What do you think happens to a nation that doesn't sufficiently fund education and allocate properly?

Take all this as signs of cracks appearing in the system.

Your initial premise is flawed

 

 

Note the second graph is using real cost... so inflation etc is covered.  While the first is adjusted by PPP. 

Our education problem isn't really a funding problem.

 

Allocation?  Maybe.  I'd place it more on execution myself.

The second graph is the most misleading graph I have ever seen and should not be used as the basis of an argument.

For starters, your costs are a displacement figure, whereas your benefits are a derivative, purely used to show an extreme bias towards the cost. If you added cost as a derivative as well, you'd see it's just as flat as the benefits.

Secondly, the graph uses two completely separat measurements on the same graph, with the assumption that, for example, $80k is wirth the equivalent of a 30% IMPROVEMENT in Achievement EVERY YEAR.

It's nothing more to appeal to the brainless mass who see this and say "OMG Education spending out of control!!!"